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why ??????
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:51 pm    Post subject: why ?????? Reply with quote

Scratch Scratch sons old BLR is making me go bauld.....
the cases seem to be expanding at the web area more than they should be..... full lenght resizing really shows this up on some cases,we chucked S&B brass as it was just too hard all around.
bought 40 rounds winchester factory 150grn loads and lad had fired of 27 of them (poor wallabies) today I reloaded them super carefully,making sure sizing die was hard down onto base die when doing resizing operation yet upon chambering a good 1/3rd of cases were still hard to chamber without the camming action of a bolt (the BLR has rotating bolt head ) if case is too tight the last 1/16th" needs force to close and after doing so a couple of times it will chamber fine thereafter.......cases are trimmed to length.
do we have tight chamber and loose dies (hornady new dimension custom grade) of is it combination of new dies and the old shell holder???Ive heard of guys making shell holder slightly shorter to fix issues this to my mind will cause die to drop lower making case slightly shorter......
its got me begiggered Scratch Scratch Scratch
we can live with issue by chambering round and making sure its closed properly which takes care of first round and work lever fast and forcefully for follow up shots but it would be nice to fix issue...bugger paying $45 a box of 20 for factory rounds,besides I like roll ya owns...any thoughts guys???

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:52 am    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

I had a very similar (pretty much the same) problem with my 30.30 and it was caused by the dies...well my setting of them. I'm trying to remember if it was the Sizing die being too low or the Bullet Seat being too low...well it was about 5 or 6 years ago.

It might not be the web of the case Elvis. Check the shoulder of your cases...there may be a teeny little bulge/fold at the shoulder/case body junction. This bulge gave me the exact same symptoms as you are describing mate. If you find a case that is hard to chamber, chamber it fully but don't fire it...eject it and check to case for a nice shiny rub mark that is on the high point causing the 'hard to chamber'. Maybe "smoke" a case that won't chamber then chamber it and look for the obvious clean spot. This should give you a good idea of what is causing the problem.

If that is not the problem mate, maybe look at the headspace. If the headspace is out, it could cause the case to move slightly backward on firing thereby loosing a little of the support of the chamber.

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English Mike
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:34 am    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

I'm thinking aling the same lines as Vince; it's prpbably your seater die set too far down & pushing the shoulder back instead of crimping.
Try backing the seater die out a little & lowering the seater plug to retain the same OAL.
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:46 am    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

ok will try that with seater next batch...just seems weird it will do it to a full length resized empty case....Im sizing/squashing them right back as far as die will allow...screw die down till it touches shell holder then another 1/4 to 1/3 turn then tighten locking ring...as per instructions

bullet seating die screwed intill touches case mouth then backed off half turn then tightened....

not an issue with new brass/factory load so thats whats got me thinking the cases are expanding at web..that and the clear "work" marks on outside of case right down to about 1/4" from base then they are shiney and dont seem to touch die at all.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:22 am    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

What calibre is the round mate? If the shiny marks at the bottom of the case are a ring all the way around the case, that says to me the case is "growing when fired then resized. I know you said the cases are trimmed, but a shiny ring all the way around is indicative of a case heading towards head separation. This shouldn't happen with once fired cases though mate.

I made a wee tool to check for this problem...I straightened out a paper clip, flattened one end, then about 3mm up from the flattened end put a 90 degree bend to form an L shape. Using this "tool" you put it down inside the case and gently run the flattened end up the inside to feel for any thinning of the brass, usually indicated by a small, sometimes rough, groove forming.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

Elvis...Take measurements in multiple areas around the web/base/bottom 1/3 of case. Compare those readings on factory new rounds, fired cases and your resized cases. Doing this should help rule out the problem area.
My experience has shown this area expands little if any at all, especially with moderate pressure loads. Of course I have ran into a few exceptions.
If you determine this area isn't the problem, look at the headspace measurements.
The lack of lubrication on the inside of the neck can result in the expander ball increasing the headspace on it's way back out of the case.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

Try this...Resize a case and chamber that unloaded case. If it chambers OK then go to the bullet seating die for the problem.

If it does not chamber check the shoulder to insure it is being set back by the sizing die far enough to allow the case to fully chamber. Had this same problem with my Browning .30-06 once.

If you are expanding the case mouth make sure you are crimping to remove the flare.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

yip its not in bullet seating as it will do it with once fired full length resized case...will do the felt tip pen thing and see what comes up.
necks well lubed with graphite powder.
feeler guage is used once fired 2-3 times ...
.308 winchester loads are mild...2 grns below book max 46.5 grns 748 with mag primer and 150grn hornady pill
but pretty sure its nothing to do with actual load.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

This one certainly has me intrigued...I’ll be very interested to see what the final solution is to correct the problem.

The only other thing I can think of is the actual chamber. Being an olde4 rifle, maybe there is some wear in the chamber that causes the case to swell in one spot which would cause a tight spot if the case isn’t chambered exactly the same way each time. Of course this can be ruled out if the case is FLS for its full length.

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Loke
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

Sounds like you are in need of a small base die. It will size the web area just ahead of the extractor groove a bit smaller than the regular dies. They are designed for semi-auto and lever guns that lack the cramming action of a bolt gun when they lock up.

rcbs.com/Products/Dies...ridge.aspx

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

just about wrenched handle off press resizing a fired case( PPU) ti try it in chamber....... and even after that treatment...dies touched completely... it hard to chamber
tried a winchester case he fired last night into target (2 shots 2 holes 3/4" apart) that chambered fine....
looking into weather or not we have bolt/lever correctly lined up as you can have it one tooth out and it still function......just need to get a hold of another BLR or talk to big bro who has one to suss this out.

Loke Ive heard of the small base dies and that will be option that we might have to resort to,thankyou for link it sort of explains what guys are meaning when they talk about them.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

felt penned a case and it touches almost all front half of case neck and shoulder included.... the tight ones jam in chamber so firmly we need to use cleaning rod down bore to tap them back out!!!!!!!
on the above PPU case I could see it being shrunk as die went down over it...quite clear line when I stopped half way and reversed stroke...had to do it 3 times to get it right down....cant be good for brass of press.plurry hard on my nerves and gritted teeth.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

Do I understand this correctly ???

If you take a fired case and chamber it in the rifle it cycles with out any problems.
It's only after you resize that the problem occurs.

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RePete
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

Because it a lever action, get yourself an RCBS small base die and bring the brass back almost new specs.

I use this for my bolt guns and autos. No prblems.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: why ?????? Reply with quote

CHAMBERED....sometimes,some brass

just spent last hour reading up manual on assembly/dissasembly.... we might have headspace issue eg bolt wont quite slide forward far enough to lock action up solid enough...it says 0.015" play is acceptable that converts to about 1/3mm but it LOOKS like 1/2mm or slightly more..so if thats correct it will allow case to stretch longer than it should???? and the web area could be weaker as not as supported as it should be???
the rotating bolt head goes as far as its supposed to (I think) but the sliding bolt body can move a wee bit and is driven forward that wee bit when hammer drops...
might have to spend MORE plurry $$$$ and send to gunsmith to rectify or say he cant do anything and just use factory loads, again a costly option.
oh the joys of having an accurate old favourite thats just not quite right.
small base dies could be answer to reusing brass if safe to do so...... grrrrrrr

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