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bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:16 pm    Post subject: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

I found a guy who is interested in making a mold for my bullets for the 22LRCF. Near as I can figure it out it will be a 40 grain truncated cone with a rebated heel. The heel has to be .190" and the bullet diameter is .226".
This will fit in a standard or match chamber. The bullet has a length of .5" but .125" is the heel and crimped inside the case. I sent him the CAD drawings I put together after running the dimensions through some software I have. It confirmed the 40 grain weight.
This has been a fun exercise and I am working on an adjustable powder thrower specifically for the small amounts of powder for this tiny case. (although it could be used for the 25 Auto as well). I am going to make a crimper for it as well but I haven't decided on whether it will be a collet type crimper or a plier type crimper.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

powder thrower could be easier to use lee spoon...... and check weigh on scales.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

NOE make a good range of molds for the .22 in various sizes and as Gelan will attest, they are brilliant molds. Going for a commercial made mold might just save you some money and problems if your design does not meet your requirements.

NOE .22 Molds

Not sure I would trust a powder thrower to drop a consistent weight in such small quantities Paul. I would seriously consider an electronic measure that check weighs on dropping, or as Elvis says, use a dipper and check weigh.

What charge weight of powder are you looking at using? I have dropped as low as 2 grains of the 'old' Bullseye using an RCBS Powder Throw and their 'micrometer' measure, but the drops would vary by up to a couple of tenths of a grain, which could amount to a fair percentage in a very light load.

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:01 am    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

Paul,
What powder are you using and how much.
I haven't followed your development of a cf .22 or but it sounds very interesting.
Please feel free to educate me.
What have you based it on?
The boys might be right regarding weighing charges indivually, but geese its slow.
Automated throwing could be the reason rim fires are so temperamental.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

It can be slow Pete, but I do it for every rifle round I load mate. I set my powder throw about .5gn short then 'trickle' the rest up to the required load using a balance beam scale.

What powder and load will you be trying Paul?

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

Paul for the 22LR which generally uses soft lead, you may want to use a swage rather than mould. You will almost always get much more consistent result with a swage.

Properly made swage for such small caliber should be able to be used with standard strong (steel not aluminum crap) reloading press.

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

Vince wrote:
It can be slow Pete, but I do it for every rifle round I load mate. I set my powder throw about .5gn short then 'trickle' the rest up to the required load using a balance beam scale.

Funnily enough that is the exact system I use for centre fires.

That said you always shoot a lot more rim fire cause its fun and cheap.
Reloading a small rim fire sized centre fire in quantity might curtail the quantity shot, especially us blind old buggers.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

Lets see if I can answer some of these questions.
The parent cases are 25 ACP. The rims are turned to match 22 specs and the area around the primer is turned down to .226". I then use three progressive dies that I made to form the case into a fully finished 22LR - with a center fire primer pocket.

Charges for the round are going to be between .8 and 1.5 grains of HP38. Most scales will not reliably weigh charges this low and some will give different weights for the same powder weighed ten times in a row. The accuracy of a 500 grain scale provides for a tolerance of 1% of full scale when using less than a 10% of maximum weight. With a special built volume measure, I can get better accuracy than the scale can provide. I will throw 100 charges into the pan to set the measured amount for reloading them. Since the volume is so small it will be difficult to get much variance from the measure.
The people who make swages don't like heeled bullets and they don't like small diameter bullets - I start with two strikes against me. The bullet has to be a custom size. The diameter is .226 which is just a bit bigger than the .224 diameter that is "normal". If you measure your RF ammo you will find it varies from brand to brand as well as within the brand. .226 is the largest diameter I have found and usually it is on match ammo. The rebated heel is also a custom size because the case is thicker than the normal 22 RF. I need a heel that is .190" diameter. Custom swages start at $250 and they add a charge for reduced diameters and heeled bullets.
I would rather cast bullets in a $75 die than pay over 4 times that for a swage. Even at current prices for primers and lead one could save a little reloading them. They can't be used in any rim fire competitions and only a few guns will shoot them at all. The Contender is one that has a selectable firing pin for center/rim fire so it is my test bed when I get to that point.

I began this excursion wondering if it could be done at all. well I have made a few cases and they fit into all the 22 RF guns I have. I have a bunch of other things going on but finding an easy way to make bullets is a big step in the right direction. Right now our garden is taking a lot of time and I have finally gotten my project in my shop so I have some things to do on the car too. The powder measure uses a round spindle with an adjustable cavity that can carry up to 1.5 grains of HP38 as a maximum. it will begin to lose som of its accuracy at half that level due to the geometry of the cavity so I should get accurate results between .75 and 1.5 grains. If I can load consistently accurate ammo at 1250 fps then I will be delighted and I will declare my experiment a success - even though no ne is going to start converting 25 ACP brass into 22LRCF brassin a commercial amount. That would be too expensive. Doing it on my own can be justified to myself but trying to make a profit is ridiculous. I would imagine that commercial brass for 22LR center fire could be made but it would be more expensive than loaded 22 are now. None of my sizing or forming is done on my reloading presses - it is all done on my Shelden No. 2 press. The dies are made out of grade 8 bolts, drilled tapered and polished by hand to get the size and finish I need - like the old reload kit in a box by LEE.
I admit that it is fun but it will never be practical.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:14 am    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

I'd love to see some pics of the case, loaded round and your setup mate...it sounds quite interesting.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

I'm with Vince. This sounds like a fun project!

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

Paul,
Pics please.
Also which primer have you decided to use?
Sounds like a fun and interesting project.
Cheers

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res45
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

Quote::
Charges for the round are going to be between .8 and 1.5 grains of HP38.

How about a 00 or 0 Little Dandy powder rotor. Depending on what it throws you can always drill it out to increase the charge or drill and tap it for a large set screw to make it adjustable.

The #3 rotor throws 2.8 grs. of HP-38 an there are no known loads using either the 00 or 0 rotor but there bound to throw less.
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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:

The people who make swages don't like heeled bullets and they don't like small diameter bullets - I start with two strikes against me. The bullet has to be a custom size. The diameter is .226 which is just a bit bigger than the .224 diameter that is "normal". If you measure your RF ammo you will find it varies from brand to brand as well as within the brand. .226 is the largest diameter I have found and usually it is on match ammo. The rebated heel is also a custom size because the case is thicker than the normal 22 RF. I need a heel that is .190" diameter. Custom swages start at $250 and they add a charge for reduced diameters and heeled bullets.
I would rather cast bullets in a $75 die than pay over 4 times that for a swage. .

Too bad you are not in Oz, I could have made you one.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

gelandangan wrote:
Too bad you are not in Oz, I could have made you one.

If I knew what to make I might be able to make it myself. Would you be interested in designing the swage and selling me the plans?

Pictures are going to have to wait for a while... I am pretty busy right now but I do intend to have pictures of each step in the process.
From a 25 ACP case to a loaded ready to fire 22LR centerfire case. I might even wait until I can shoot a target to have results on paper and chronograph readings of velocity and other data with the different steps.

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: bullet mold for the 22LR centerfire Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
gelandangan wrote:
Too bad you are not in Oz, I could have made you one.

If I knew what to make I might be able to make it myself. Would you be interested in designing the swage and selling me the plans?

.

Like you I have never made one either.
I doubt my design will be any better than yours.

But IMO you only need a couple of rams one for the tip and one for the tail, and a cylinder made to the required diameter for the body, it should not be too difficult to make one.
I would start by making a drilled and reamed cylinder to size, then making the rams to fit. While I am lucky to have CNC, I am sure with care you could even make one with a drill press.

There is no need to make it out of hardened steel until you got the dimension and shape right.

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