HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: IPutMoInYoA
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 13131

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 394
BOT: 2
Total: 396
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Your Account
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Forums
05: Home
06: Forums
07: Forums
08: Your Account
09: Home
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Forums
13: Home
14: Forums
15: Photo Albums
16: Forums
17: Photo Albums
18: Forums
19: Forums
20: Forums
21: Forums
22: Your Account
23: Forums
24: Your Account
25: Your Account
26: Forums
27: Forums
28: Forums
29: Forums
30: Home
31: Photo Albums
32: Home
33: Forums
34: Photo Albums
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Home
38: Home
39: Forums
40: Home
41: Home
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Forums
45: Forums
46: Home
47: Forums
48: Forums
49: Forums
50: Forums
51: Forums
52: Forums
53: Forums
54: Home
55: Your Account
56: Forums
57: Forums
58: Forums
59: Home
60: Forums
61: Forums
62: Forums
63: News
64: Forums
65: Your Account
66: Your Account
67: Forums
68: Photo Albums
69: Forums
70: Forums
71: Forums
72: Forums
73: Forums
74: Forums
75: Forums
76: Home
77: Your Account
78: Forums
79: Forums
80: Forums
81: Forums
82: Home
83: Forums
84: Forums
85: Forums
86: Forums
87: Forums
88: Photo Albums
89: Forums
90: Forums
91: Your Account
92: Forums
93: Home
94: Photo Albums
95: Forums
96: Forums
97: Forums
98: Home
99: Forums
100: Forums
101: Forums
102: Forums
103: Forums
104: Forums
105: Home
106: Forums
107: Photo Albums
108: Photo Albums
109: Forums
110: Forums
111: Photo Albums
112: Forums
113: Forums
114: Forums
115: Your Account
116: Your Account
117: Statistics
118: Photo Albums
119: Forums
120: Forums
121: Home
122: Forums
123: Your Account
124: Photo Albums
125: Forums
126: Forums
127: Home
128: Photo Albums
129: Your Account
130: Forums
131: Your Account
132: Forums
133: Forums
134: Forums
135: Your Account
136: Photo Albums
137: Home
138: Forums
139: Forums
140: Forums
141: Photo Albums
142: Your Account
143: Forums
144: Forums
145: Forums
146: Home
147: Forums
148: Photo Albums
149: Forums
150: Home
151: Forums
152: Home
153: Forums
154: Forums
155: Forums
156: Forums
157: Home
158: Home
159: Forums
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Forums
163: Forums
164: Forums
165: Forums
166: Forums
167: Forums
168: Forums
169: Forums
170: Forums
171: Forums
172: Home
173: Forums
174: Forums
175: Forums
176: Photo Albums
177: Forums
178: Forums
179: Home
180: Home
181: Forums
182: Forums
183: Photo Albums
184: Forums
185: Photo Albums
186: Forums
187: Forums
188: Home
189: Forums
190: Home
191: Forums
192: Forums
193: Forums
194: Forums
195: Forums
196: Forums
197: Your Account
198: Photo Albums
199: Forums
200: Home
201: Your Account
202: Forums
203: Photo Albums
204: Forums
205: Forums
206: Your Account
207: Home
208: Home
209: Forums
210: Forums
211: Forums
212: Forums
213: Forums
214: Forums
215: Forums
216: Your Account
217: Forums
218: Forums
219: Forums
220: Forums
221: Forums
222: Forums
223: Forums
224: Photo Albums
225: Forums
226: News
227: Forums
228: Forums
229: Forums
230: Forums
231: Forums
232: Your Account
233: Forums
234: Forums
235: Forums
236: Home
237: Your Account
238: Photo Albums
239: Forums
240: Your Account
241: Your Account
242: Forums
243: Forums
244: Forums
245: Forums
246: Forums
247: Forums
248: Photo Albums
249: Forums
250: Forums
251: Forums
252: Home
253: Forums
254: Forums
255: Forums
256: Forums
257: Your Account
258: Forums
259: Forums
260: Forums
261: Forums
262: Forums
263: Photo Albums
264: Home
265: Forums
266: Forums
267: Forums
268: Home
269: News
270: Photo Albums
271: Your Account
272: Forums
273: Your Account
274: Your Account
275: Home
276: Forums
277: Forums
278: Forums
279: Forums
280: Photo Albums
281: Home
282: Forums
283: Your Account
284: Home
285: Photo Albums
286: Forums
287: Home
288: Home
289: Home
290: Forums
291: Forums
292: Home
293: Forums
294: Forums
295: Forums
296: Forums
297: Your Account
298: Your Account
299: Forums
300: Forums
301: Home
302: Home
303: Forums
304: Forums
305: Home
306: Forums
307: Forums
308: Forums
309: Forums
310: Forums
311: Forums
312: Your Account
313: Home
314: Forums
315: Photo Albums
316: Forums
317: Forums
318: Forums
319: Forums
320: Forums
321: Forums
322: Home
323: Forums
324: Photo Albums
325: Forums
326: Forums
327: Photo Albums
328: Forums
329: Home
330: Forums
331: Forums
332: Forums
333: Your Account
334: Forums
335: Forums
336: Forums
337: Forums
338: Photo Albums
339: Your Account
340: Your Account
341: Forums
342: Forums
343: Forums
344: Home
345: Your Account
346: Statistics
347: Home
348: Home
349: Forums
350: Home
351: Forums
352: Forums
353: Photo Albums
354: Forums
355: Forums
356: Forums
357: Your Account
358: Home
359: Photo Albums
360: Forums
361: Forums
362: Your Account
363: Forums
364: Home
365: Forums
366: Forums
367: Home
368: Forums
369: Home
370: Forums
371: Forums
372: Forums
373: Forums
374: Forums
375: Your Account
376: Photo Albums
377: Home
378: Forums
379: Forums
380: Forums
381: Forums
382: Forums
383: Forums
384: Photo Albums
385: Photo Albums
386: Photo Albums
387: Forums
388: Forums
389: Forums
390: Forums
391: Forums
392: Forums
393: Your Account
394: Forums
  BOT:
01: Forums
02: Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 308
 Pictures: 2452
  · Views: 824092
  · Votes: 1316
  · Comments: 86
 

Problem Child Tamed?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SingleShotLover
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 1005
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:57 am    Post subject: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

Nothing is more frustrating to me than having a firearm that is less than useable. Most people run across one or two in the course of their hobby and either trade it off or stick it in the darkest corner of their closet. It is always satisfying to come up with a solution to whatever problem is present.

In my case the problem child is a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum that a friend gave me many years ago. When fired with cast bullets, this revolver has always been the worst leading firearm I have ever had. Jacketed bullets worked acceptably with fair accuracy but I have always preferred cast for economy, performance and reduced wear and tear. We all know that most, if not all, firearms will show varying degrees of leading over extended shooting periods, but none of the rest of mine do so as badly as this one. Unfortunately as few as a dozen shots with cast bullets from a large assortment of styles, suppliers and etc. would lead to the point that often the rifling was buried. Slugging the bore revealed that it was .432”. Obviously even .431” bullets weren’t bumping up enough to properly engage rifling and were causing leading. I figure that the only reason jacketed bullets worked is that they had softer cores, depending on the jackets to engage the rifling, and bumped up easier. As a result I seldom shot it, preferring to use other .44s instead. As it had been a gift, thoughts of trading it off were never considered.

In the course of re-building a Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt I decided to try my hand at casting bullets. Rather than investing a lot of money in moulds, pots, sizer/lubricators and etc., I ordered a couple of Lee .452” 255-grain RNFP molds, .452” sizer kit and a Lee Production Pot. Though this mould design isn’t one of the “tumble-lube” designs, it turned out that Lee’s liquid lube worked splendidly on bullets pushed in the vicinity of 850-900 fps with excellent accuracy and virtually no leading other than a faint “wash” apparent after 40-50 rounds. A quick pass with a bronze bore brush followed by a tight bore mop erased nearly all of the traces and accuracy never fell off with buildup. Dropping from the mould at an average of 262 grains and having an extremely generous flat nose, this bullet is now my standard for the .45 Colt at velocities up to 1,100 fps.

Since things had worked so well for that .45, I began to wonder if a combination of bullet size and lube might make a difference in my problem with the .44. I was lucky enough to win the bid at a very good price on a gently used Lyman 429421 mould (one of those thought to be most closely of original Keith SWC design), ordered a Lee .430 sizing kit and started to work. Initial bullets dropped from this mold at 258 grains and averaged .4315” diameter. Bullets weren’t perfectly round, but considering the excessive bore diameter, I thought to try them unsized using fairly liberal amounts of Lee lube to coat them first. Results were mixed but encouraging. Groups (using my normal full-house loads) were adequate, if not impressive, and leading after 24 rounds was negligible.

Encouraged, I decided to try sizing a few bullets to .430” and backing the load to around 1,150 to 1,200 fps (a load I commonly employ for general use in order to reduce stress on my firearms). After sizing and re-lubing, these bullets were loaded and taken out to my range. Success! Groups averaged 2” or less and only the faintest trace of lead could be found after 24 rounds. This was easily removed merely by running the bore mop through. My S&W 629 (which doesn’t know what leading is) was used to finish the rest of the box of 50 and resulted in groups running 1” to 1 1/2” (from the bench) with absolutely no sign of leading. Another batch prepared the same way but pushed to roughly 1,400 fps actually tightened the groups slightly from both revolvers with very slight leading in the Ruger and the 629 bore looking like a mirror.

Now that I was rolling, I decided to try those commercially cast bullets after tumble-lubing with the Lee lube. I lubed some of LeadHead’s excellent 270-grain LBT and 250-grain SWC bullets without removing the commercial lube in the grooves and allowed them to dry. Each weight was pushed by the hunting load I commonly use for these weights. The Ruger (which had previously leaded hideously with both styles) shot both weights well, but did show a little more leading than with the Lyman bullets. The 629 shot them the same as it does with just the commercial lube that LeadHead uses and again the bore was clean.

I have several other variables I still want to try, but it is nice to know that sometimes that light at the end of the tunnel isn’t a train!

_________________
If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!

The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.

SSL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 4330
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

Good job SingleShot Lover!
As I understand it the bullet diameter and bore diameter are of prime concern in leading. Ruger has never been known for their smooth finish on their bores and I had a lot of trouble shooting swaged lead bullets but never tried cast. I have some cast bullets for my 357 (170 grain) and I may try to get a load worked up this summer with them. I have checked and they are a snug fit in the cylinder so I can't use much more diameter. It will be the first time lead bullets have been fired in my gun since it was more than a year old.

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Vince
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 15715
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:34 am    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

Single Shot, have you checked on the BRN Hardness factor of the cast projectiles?

Reading Richard Lee's most excellent book Modern Handloading prompted my mate and I to consider using softer projectiles, reducing the powder charge appropriately. We use LEE Alox tumble lube and with projectiles that come in around BRN 15 - 16 we found that leading was almost non existent and groups were more than acceptable in various rifles... .223 Rem, .243 Win, 30.30 Win, .308 Win and 8mm Mauser.

Not too sure how this would compute out in a revolver mate, but it is definitely food for thought. When I was reloading .357Mag for my 586 S&W, I cast projectiles out of a lead alloy that is very close to Lyman #2, 92% lead, 6% tin and 2% antimony. I never had a problem with leading, even driving these non gas checked projectiles up to 1400fps+. The lube I always used was my own homemade lube...a mix of beeswax and ATF mixed to a nice soft waxy consistency.

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
SingleShotLover
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 1005
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

PaulS - You are right about many Ruger barrels being rough. That isn't the case with this particular revolver. I think the excessive bore diameter is the real culprit. Ideally, cast bullet diameter should be .001 - .002 larger than the bore with an exact match being the minimum. .357 Mags traditionally are harder to keep from leading but it can be done. Swagged bullets are too soft for anything over .38 Special velocities. Cylinder throat diameter is usually a bit larger than bore diameter on most revolvers so a tight fit in yours should be a good bore match.

Vince - Leadhead bullets are advertised as being 18-22 BHN. My bullets are cast from wheel weights and are probably a bit softer, which may be allowing them to "bump up" enough for better rifling engagement. It's pretty much still guesswork at this point. The Leadhead bullets have served very well through a long list of other .44s ranging from many Rugers, 2 Dan Wessons, T?C barrels and a S&W 29s and 629. That;s why this one is so frustrating. I'm also leaning toward thinking that the Lee lube is doing a better job (at least in this case) of lubing the bore. Lotsof work ahead!

And in the interest of full disclosure; shooting distance was 20 yards - high winds dropped a tree in my way at my normal 25-yard line and it will stay there until warmer weather!

_________________
If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!

The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.

SSL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
chambered221
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: Lost for good !!!

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

Penn bullets size to .432 !!!

Might be worth it to try them to see what happens.
I'd assume there are others that have oversized offerings as well.

_________________
Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 9253
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:00 am    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

you will nut it out sooner or later.....didnt see gas checks mentioned...... could they be an option for improvement????

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 4330
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:19 am    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

The problem I have had with gas checks is that the don't always seat square on the bullet. When you shoot them it is like having a muzzle that isn't square and it throws the bullet wide, high or low depending on how it exits. I used them on inverted HBWC when I was testing them for penetration and expansion in me 357. That is one big hollow point. It turned out to be a bust because the expand too fast and they don't penetrate or stay in one piece unless you drop the velocities down to the 38 Special level. I settled on the 140 grain Speer Hot-Core hollow point. It gave great penetration, expanded well and stayed together even above the 1500 fps which is where I get good accuracy with them. (19.1 grains of H110 is still a 1/2 grain below the old original maximum charge of 19.6 grains even though it is listed in most manuals as a 1.1 grain overload in the later manuals that follow the reduced SAAMI pressure levels designed to accommodate the small and medium frame S&W and clones)

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Vince
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 15715
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

I bought a Lyman Gas Check Seater for use with my Lubesizer Paul. It ensures the GC is correctly and fully seated before you crimp it into place. Only complaint I have is it adds another step to the process.

How to use the Lyman Gas Check Seater



ly-gcs.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  13.29 KB
 Viewed:  11882 Time(s)

ly-gcs.jpg


_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
SingleShotLover
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 1005
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

The problem with Penn bullets is the bullet design. They are mostly bevel-based which, in common theory, allow gasses to jet up the sides of the bullet causing gas cutting and actually promote leading. They may work in some barrels, but I have never had very good luck with BB bullets in any of my revolvers or calibers over the years. Their design is also not a true "Keith" design in that the nose is too short transferring bullet weight too far to the rear for down-range stability. It is nice that there are options for over-size bullets, but the designs make me hesitate. You are right that it may be worthwhile to check other casters for oversize options too.

Gas checks are an option, but would require molds designed for them, additional steps and added expense. Since this one Ruger is the only one of my .44s that gives me problems I am unwilling to go to the extra just for one revolver. If all other options fail me maybe I'll consider them.

Thanks all for their suggestions though. Never can tell what might work the best.

_________________
If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!

The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.

SSL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Aloysius
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 03, 2009
Posts: 2440
Location: B., Belgium

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

Vince, don't know the Lyman sytem, but you should have a look at a Saeco press. To seat the GC you just turn something to the middle to prevent the core in its way down. When the GS is seated, you turn that thing out of the way and the bullet can go down to size and recieve its lube. Think you'd love the system.
I don't have such a Lyman press and on the RCBS-presses I don't use GC's.
Back to top
View user's profile
Loke
Member
Member


Joined: May 13, 2013
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

You have mentioned bore size, but what about the throats? Do they match the bore, and are they consistent?

_________________
Life is too short to carry an ugly gun.
Back to top
View user's profile
SingleShotLover
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 1005
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

Loke wrote:
You have mentioned bore size, but what about the throats? Do they match the bore, and are they consistent?

I used a Manson reamer to open the throats to .4325" several years ago. Throats are uniform and smooth.

_________________
If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!

The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.

SSL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
chambered221
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: Lost for good !!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

Might be time for a custom mold !!!

My thinking is proper sized bullets will eliminate the majority of your leading.
If it were me I'd buy a 100 just for experimental purpose if I couldn't find a oversized bullet without the BB.

_________________
Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Aloysius
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 03, 2009
Posts: 2440
Location: B., Belgium

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:01 am    Post subject: Re: Problem Child Tamed? Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:
Might be time for a custom mold !!!

My thinking is proper sized bullets will eliminate the majority of your leading.
If it were me I'd buy a 100 just for experimental purpose if I couldn't find a oversized bullet without the BB.

or experiments with paper patched bullets? Different sizes by using different paper layers or thicknesses.
Or is the patched removed in the gap between cylinder and barrel in a revolver?
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 7 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by *Dizfunkshunal* :.