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AR Feeling the need
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:49 pm    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

StoveP you can sell it, you just can't make it with the intent of selling it. The English language is elegant that way. Sell it to a friend or hand it down to your family, don't know if a gun shop would want it but actually all they have to do is put a serial number on it and record it in their books.


Suz

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:57 pm    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

Suz,
The builder has to pay for the registration of the serial number when it is transfered.
Doesn't matter who it is transfered to or how. The $200 tax is required to transfer the firearm if it was manufactured after a specific date.
I had to look at the ATFE site and go through a couple of pages to find it hidden toward the bottom of a page. If you make a phone call they will cite it for you without the chase.

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

Oh this just gets better and better, you Ba#$!@*&.
You can build your own semi auto in exotic or common calipers, doesnt need a S/N unless you sell it?
And the gubbermint dont care?

We need a progrom against politicians, journos and inner city latte sipping anti gun intellectuals.

Now going for a beer and a good cry.......

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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:11 am    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

Pete whose crying into his beer wrote:
...Now going for a beer and a good cry.......

Me too mate... Sad Crying or Very sad Sad Crying or Very sad

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

dhc4ever wrote:
Oh this just gets better and better, you Ba#$!@*&.
You can build your own semi auto in exotic or common calipers, doesnt need a S/N unless you sell it?
And the gubbermint dont care?

[[[We need a progrom against politicians, journos and inner city latte sipping anti gun intellectuals.]]]

Now going for a beer and a good cry.......

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel! Laughing

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

Come to America dhc4ever...We could use a few good Aussies here.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

Suzanne wrote:
StoveP you can sell it, you just can't make it with the intent of selling it. The English language is elegant that way. Sell it to a friend or hand it down to your family, don't know if a gun shop would want it but actually all they have to do is put a serial number on it and record it in their books.


Suz


(no disrespect Suz.... Very Happy ...but here goes)

It's a "wobble law". Poorly worded. Lots of room for the ATF to slap your hand and make you life pretty miserable. If you made it, has no S#, just keep it or destroy it. If you want to sell it? Tons of hoops, like a normal DROS has, esp. one with no S# post 1968.

Sounds nit-picky but....that's how I roll and I won't advocate doing anything that may or may not skirt a law.

How I read the laws?

1- I will not sell or exchange one without a S#. Nor should anyone. Period.

2- Also- when machining the lower, YOU must do it yourself, no "straw machinist" for hire, etc., that's the whole thing with building your own. Period.

That's how I see this whole thing. I'm not alone!
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

Hell...If I still lived in the USSR of C I would have to serialize my "spit wad shooter" and my "clothespin bean shooter".

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

They banned straws, rubber bands, clothes pins and light bulbs!

NEVER going back. Ever.

(almost forgot)

STUPID LIBERALS!!!! Laughing
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

ROFL Me 'neither!!

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

Mornin' Bushboss!

Barns mucked out, 3'rd pot on the brew, tractor will be serviced by lunch.

Then I'll go rat whompin in the barn with the .22 and some #12. If there's a pitchfork leanin against the door, I'm in there huntin (and patching .45cal holes- since when do rats climb walls 7 feet up??? Geez!), so you and that hog leg stay out!
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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

Calling the local ATF office in my state to clarify. He said that the intent is the important part of the law. He gave an example of if you build one gun this year and sell it next year that's probably not built with the intent to sell. If you build three guns and sell them, you're probably manufacturing with the intent to sell. If you build a gun and sell it then build the exact same gun, that may be intent. Anyway, he said there's no number, its all arbitrary and their opinion.

With regards to marking;
The agent I spoke with said he couldn't find any information where an individual who manufactures a firearm is required to mark it. I asked him about the marking it (should it be sold or lawfully transferred in the future) with regards to how an FFL would enter an unmarked weapon in their books. He said they would enter it similar to a gun made before 1968 when serial numbers weren't required and that my name would be listed as the manufacturer.

So, according to the agent, I can manufacture a gun for personal use. I can later at some point in the future decide I no longer want it and sell or trade it (so long as the intent when building it is NOT to sell it). I am not required to mark it in any way before sale


Just to make me more secure about the subject I went to the ATF website and found this;

When does a receiver need to have markings and/or serial numbers?
Receivers that meet the definition of a “firearm” must have markings, including a serial number. See 27 CFR § 478.92 (Firearm manufacturers marking requirements).

And if you go to the above mentioned section of the regs and read them they're referring to Licensed Manufacturers of Firearms. The entire thing is worded that way. I'm not a licensed manufacturer.

What is ATF doing in regard to people making firearms?
There are no federal restrictions on an individual making a firearm for personal use, as long as it does not violate the GCA or National Firearms Act (NFA)......(which is all about machineguns, barrel lengths, silencers)

Can an individual make large quantities of firearms and sell them?
If an individual is “engaged in the business” (defined below) as a manufacturer or seller of firearms then that person must obtain a federal firearms license. In addition, manufacturers have a variety of specific responsibilities under the Gun Control Act, such as including a serial number and other markings on all firearms.

Under 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(21)(A), the term “engaged in the business” means— as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.

. Can anyone make firearms and sell them?
With certain exceptions, and subject to any state law that might apply, as long as an individual is not prohibited from possessing a firearm, he or she can make a firearm for personal use. If an individual wants to manufacture and sell firearms, he or she is required to obtain a license, and mark each firearm manufactured in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92. [18 U.S.C. 923(i), 26 U.S.C. 5822]

State laws take precedent over federal laws in every matter. Typically there are no state laws that are more lax than federal laws. If there isn’t a specific state law, federal law is the unwritten state law.

So it's like I said, as long as you don't intend on manufacturing for sale, then it's another ball game of licensing and marking. After a few years of use and I'm tired of it and want to sell it, I see no written regulation that prohibits it or even mentions it. All of the marking regulations are aimed at licensed manufacturers, not unlicensed hobbyists.

If I were you and felt nervous about it, and I wanted to sell it, you could always disassemble the lower, keep the parts and upper for sale.


Suz

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

Ok, I had the "business of manufacture for profit" part screwed up in my head I guess.
Suz, it looks like you are correct. Thanks for your diligence!
Now I have to buy some tooling for my lathe. Smile

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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

Sorry Paulie it's in my nature to poke everyone in the back so they sit up straight (and I know it's annoying). Just didn't want people to think it's a risky proposition cause it's really fun to ream out a lower and be able to use it. I did a couple of the plastic ones and used my drill press with an x-y vice and milling bit. Don't know if it would work on aluminum very well but the plastic lowers are good enough for me. The place I got them from had a bunch of factory seconds or over-runs and they cost about $25 or $30 ea. so I couldn't pass it up.


Suz

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need Reply with quote

Hi Mom....

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DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
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