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The 300 WSM's lessons
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:26 am    Post subject: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

I greeted the announcement of the new WSM cartridges with some interest and some skepticism, but, if it delivered on its promises of magnum performance, better accuracy and less recoil it at least got my attention. Now, with some experience with the cartridge, I believe the 300WSM will slide into obsolescence before the decade is out. And here's some of the reasons . . .

One of the criticisms of cartridges like the 284Win, 6.5 and 350 Rem and their ilk, is that bullets had to be seated deeply into the case and that, in turn, reduced powder capacity. Add the 300 WSM to that group. The difference in useable capacity from a bullet seated to the base of the neck vs a bullet seated deeply enough to fit in the magazine is a tad over 4 grains. If the load used has 95% volumetric filling of the case, the guy reloading will hear a definite series of "crunches" as the bullet compresses the powder column. These short magazines are required to use the shortened actions that are supposed to give the better accuracy. Even if the magazine is long enough to allow a bullet to be seated to the base of the neck, the limitation on the three rifles I have worked with is the short leade on the throat, a throat that has been, correctly, matched to the magazine length. Catch 22. Ironically, the solution is to build rifles chambered in 300WSM on longer actions, then we could have the 300WMM (the Winchester Medium Magnum).

OK, so how does the 300WSM stack up to a conventional 30-06 in the performance department? I have one 06 with a 24" barrel and borrowed another with a 24" barrel to compare with the three rifles in WSM that, also, had 24" barrels. Loads were brought to maximum and, then, reduced by 1.5gr of powder. Here is what I found, using 180gr bullets after some load development . . . .

These are averages from the guns tested.


300WSM 2,959fps handloads 1.115" 5 shots/100yds
2,991fps factory 1.28" 5/100

30-06 2,878fps handloads 1.15" 5/100

One 06, FWIW, constantly registered 2,917fps average!

Perhaps, our expectations were a little high for the WSMs, let alone the WSSMs. Maybe, the lesson is that if you spend company capital in the quest of something new, it better deliver or else you may find yourself closing the doors and laying off workers. Maybe, the lesson is that the shooting public is smarter than others may believe. Still, maybe the best lesson is when the gunwriters start hyping a product, turn the page.
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george20042007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:03 am    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

Hi Handloader...How do you feel about the S&W 460? The Hornady 200 grn factory load does what they advertise & I've been loading a 300 grn bullet that does more than I expected. I think the S&W 460 is a keeper.
Keep it coming...
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:45 am    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

Mate thats BS, what weight bullet did you use in both to work that out?

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shootist
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

Hi Handloader...I think your data makes your point but the .30/06 factory
specs even in the old days were closer to 2650fps. The .300WSM is about 2900fps. It just goes to show that with precise handloading you can approach mag velocities which are about +10%.
Compressed charges are not uncommon with some cartridges but the manufacturers are always splitting differences and adding hype. Good work.

Shootist
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

Handloader,
I don't use my BS meter often but now I have to get a new one!
I want to see anyone get a 180 grain bullet to 2878 fps in a 3006 with a below maximum charge (much less your claim of 2900+). I have two 06 rifles and with 180 grain bullets the fastest I have ever pushed a 180 grain bullet is just less than 2750 fps and that was with a maximum charge as measured over a chronograph at five yards and then corrected for the muzzle.

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shootist
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

Hi Pauls...I think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt...60.0gr of 4831 compressed in a 26" barrel should make 2850fps. Shorter than 26" and I agree with you.
I'd start measuring for case expansion...

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

Oh my, we have some doubters out there about the verable 30-06! Or, maybe, we have a few among us with overly sensitive BS meters? Let's see.

One of the things that has advanced in handloading is powders and bullets. One of the great powders that I have worked with is VitaVouri and Reloder 19 and 22, although the Vita will give slightly better velocity. Bullets, too, have advanced and in this case I was using Barnes TSX, about the sexiest bullet ever marketed.

2850 to 2900fps is not unattainable with safe loads; in fact, it may even be conservative!! Winchester brass (not that soft stuff by Remington or Norma, please) showed case head on first firing, compared to new brass of the same lot, that was normal. FWI, twenty of these cases have been loaded over 8 times and are still useable. Velocities were measured on a Pact Pro and confirmed with an Oehler 35, + or - 1%.

Too, I have a pre64 FW in 06 that will deliver 2,815fps, also with the TSX 180gr and Vita powder. This is a 22" barrel as opposed to the 24" used in the development of load data quoted in the original post.

Now, those disbelievers that have responded "BS" sent me scurrying to my loading manuals to see what those sources say. Here are some figures from three manuals:

Lyman 48: 180gr @ 2,840 Not quite as much as mine numbers, right? But, they are using conventional bullets.

Nosler, 5th Edition: 180gr @ 2,872 (24" barrel) Now, we are getting closer.

Barnes #3: 180XLC (24" barrel) LOTS of loads over 3,000 fps! Let me repeat that for those that living back east or Down Under -- LOTS of loads over 3,000fps!!

Please note that the TSX normally exceeds XLC velocities with the same bullet weight.

So . . . . . turn down your little BS meters, get back to the bench, use some modern powders and some modern bullets and supercharge your 30-06 -- safely. And, sell those obsolete 300WSMs before the value drops through the basement!!
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Laughing
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

george20042007 wrote:
Hi Handloader...How do you feel about the S&W 460? The Hornady 200 grn factory load does what they advertise & I've been loading a 300 grn bullet that does more than I expected. I think the S&W 460 is a keeper.
Keep it coming...

Hi George: the 460 S&W is an amazing and versatile handgun on the maximum end of the spectrum. A few of us were in Prescott prior to the debut of the handgun and were given the opportunity to shoot a scoped prototype with some of Hornady's new ammo. At 200yds, it was impressive, flat shooting and had managable recoil. These were the 200gr bullets (I wonder about those 300gr!!).

We have sold about a dozen of these handguns since their introduction. We have had two returned that had around 1,500 rounds of full power ammo through them only to find that there was significant errosion in the throat. I'm not sure if this is going to be a problem overall or if this was merely an unrepresentative sample. S&W replaced barrels on these two for around $100 IIRC.

For sure, it is far more pleasant to shoot than the 500S&W, at least for me. The gain twist on the 460S&W makes a different in torque to the shooter's hand that is noticeable.

The real question is whether the X Frame will gain popularity enough to warrant their continued production and market expansion or whether there is an early saturation point in the market? S&W seems to believe strongly in the X Frame.

Time will tell.
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:04 am    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

Handloader,

Its hard to bait an old dog like me. I say it straight and try to back it up.

You say that you push a 180 grain TSX to 2900 FPS from a 24 inch barrel by reducing the load 1.5 grains from maximum. I am assuming that maximum is "maximum listed load" and not the arbitrary "maximum" where cases are hard to extract and after three or ten loadings won't hold a primer anymore. (nope! I reread your post and you admit that using a different case your loads showed signs of pressures way over the top!) Much too dangerous a game for me. I like to check the manuals and make sure my loads are safe.

Lyman uses a universal receiver and when compared to actual field results in MY guns their velocities run a bit lower than advertized. (about 200 fps lower) As for using the newer powders I have fully embraced the double base powders and found that I get the highest velocity with excellent accuracy. This in spite of the fact that the case was designed for powders of the same vintage and if the truth were told, some of the single base powders still give higher velocities and my most accurate load ever was with H4895 and a Sierra 168 grain BTHP. It was great for punching holes in paper but worthless for hunting (too slow and a target bullet).

I looked through 6 of my manuals and found none that listed 2900 fps with a 180 grain bullet - NOT ONE LOAD and most of these books advertise velocities between two and three hundred FPS faster than the results I get from my gun with the same loads.

Now don't get me wrong - I am not your average doubting Thomas - I have tried the loads and tested them. I have proven to myself that the loads work in my gun or don't work in my gun. If you can get 2900 FPS with a 180 grain bullet in your gun and feel good about loading above SAAMI standards then go for it. I prefer to keep my guns and body parts all conected and in one piece. I am too conservative after 35 years of reloading to play with the hotrod loads - I like accuracy much more than velocity and I have cases, even softer cases, that have been loaded in excess of twenty times. I also use hunting bullets - bullets that hold together when they strike an animal at 100 yards. I like medium weight bullets (for their caliber) and shoot 165 grain bullets in my 06's. I only get about 2750 fps but it shoots well and doesn't hurt cases, the rifle or me.

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

Hi PaulS: thanks for your comments. Let's see if I can add some clarity to our discussion.

The point of the post was to compare two different cartridges, one that is relatively new and one that is an old classic. When loads are developed by the same methodology, both cartridges are comparable in terms of velocity. That is the primary point. The second point is that developments in powders and bullets have advanced the handloader's ability, in many cases, to improve on velocity AND retain the same safety margin.

Allow one correction to your post, PaulS: my recommendation for Winchester brass is based on the experience of many of us that have used various brands of brass for wildcatting and commercial cartridges and usually find Winchester to be the most durable and most consistent, along with Lapua. How you construe that as an admission that the other brass (Remington/Norma) showed pressures "way over the top" is neither correct nor accurate. I regret any confusion on this important point.

I chose the Barnes TSX because it is representative of the newest technology in bullets. I used Alliant and Vita powders because they usually demonstrate higher velocity in many loads. A general guideline in reloading is to use information and data from the manufacturer. Pulling up the Barnes website will show that Barnes recommends a specific process for determining when excessive pressure begins to show and, then, to reduce the loads from that point. And that is the exact process I followed for both cartridges. Evenso, my velocities were somewhat less than the Barnes manual shows for their XLC bullets. I've quoted the manuals that show my results are not atypical of improved velocities with the 06 and these are manuals that have been updated, not the same data from previous editions. The new Barnes #4 will be out soon and reveal even more improvements from what I hear.

I agree with your priority of safety in handloading. I've defined the reasons for chosing the bullets used and my results are mirrored by many that have developed loads for the TSX -- they often improve velocity and accuracy. I've been reloading since 1955 and have watched the evolvement of better techniques and better materials. Both have resulted in improved safety, accuracy and, in some cases, velocity. We have at our disposal inexpensive chronographs and the wonders of the Internet that allows us access to manufacturers and experimenters alike. Combined, these permit better cartridge performance within ascribed safety levels and a better understanding of handloading in general. I enjoy taking advantage of these advances.

I have provided you, PaulS, with my results and you have provided me with your opinions. While I value your input, I suggest you buy a box of Barnes TSX, develop some loads using Barnes methodology and report your results.

Incidentally, I have found old dog baiting does produce excessive pressure and is unsafe; I gave up on it long ago. (smiles and winks).
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

Handloader,

You have listed results - without the data

You credit the results to powders and bullets that are newer

I thought that you had said that you switched to Winchester cases because the softer cases had shown case head pressure signs - I may have seen what I was looking for (common but not excusable) as I went back again to read it - I can see that I was wrong. I use winchester cases because they have more internal volume than most others and they are more consistant in their weight. Whether they are stronger or not I can't be sure.

I guess we could leave it the way it stands or you could list your loads.
here is my current favorite - it shoots to .625" average groups with the smallest recorded at .485" (all at 100 yards)
Remington 03A3
24 inch barrel
Winchester case
WLR primer
Speer 165 grain bullet (#2034)
54.9 grains of H414 (1.1gr below listed maximum)
2704 fps muzzle (chrono'd at 2695 at 5 yards)
19 fps MAD
83 fps ES
Speer and Hodgdon list this powder at the same maximum load.
Hodgdon lists a maximum of 56 grains of H414 at 2899 fps I got 2723 as an average velocity with it. I found my best accuracy at 54.9 (54.8 to 55.0 made little difference in velocity or POI)
Penetration in salt water was 23 inches at 50 yards
expansion in salt water was .534 inches at 50 yards

Are you willing to share your data that yielded your results?

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

Just one note to support Handloader. (I'm on your side). Browning A-B0lt 22" barrel. 180 gr Nosler Ballistic tip. CCI 200. 59 grains of H4831SC. 2720 fps. That's one grain below maximim charge. My Lyman #48 Edition lists 60 grains of H4831 @ 2840 fps. I see no reason why one counldn't reach 2900 fps with a little work.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

Hi Handloader...I looked at the data for factory loads versus handloaded .30/06 and observed that the factory specs for chamber pressure are limited to 45,400 copper units of pressure thus keeping velocities under 2700fps. SAAMI specs limit the cartridge to 50,000 C.U.P.
As I mentioned previously 60.0gr of 4831 is a compressed powder charge and in effect is a maximum load. The factory load limits are probably because of the weaker lever actions chambered for the round.

Now to do some work and perk up my .300SAV

Accept my apologies...

Shootist
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
Handloader,

You credit the results to powders and bullets that are newer . . . .
Are you willing to share your data that yielded your results?


Glad to share some data, PaulS and, thanks, for your continued interest. And a few comments, but, first the averaged* data:

300WSM

Winchester Brass, weighed, prepped, trimmed to 2.095"
Primer: WLRM
Powder: Reloder 19, 69 grains
Bullet: TSX 180gr
Velocity: 2,996 fps @ 12', PACT Pro/Oehler 35, 66 degrees
SD: 14fps
COL: 2.875"


30-06 Springfield

Load #1
Winchester Brass, weighed, prepped, trimmed to 2.49"
Primer: GM215M
Powder: VihtaVoui Oy N160, 60.5gr
Bullet: TSX 180gr
Velocity: 2,906 fps @ 12', PACT Pro, 77 degrees
SD: 18fps
COL: 3.275"

Load #2 SAA, except
Primer: WLRM
Powder: Reloder 19, 61.5gr
Velocity: 2,897 fps 63 degrees
SD: 12fps

Load #3 SAA except
Primer: WLRM
Powder: AA4350, 58.5gr
Velocity: 2,908 73 degrees
SD: 28fps

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Averaged Data: recall that I used numerous firearms in these tests. Some developed higher/lower velocities. Loads listed are the average of these rifles. One 06 actually got to 2,935fps. If you wish I can provide rifle data as well, but, allow that all rifles tested had 24" barrels.

The data is the result of two groups of five shots each. Retests were done with two groups of five shots each.

Case Head Expansion: If a first fired case is compared with an unfired case of the same lot/brand, CHE can be a valuable indicator of pressure. Barnes notes loads of .0005" CHE indicate pressures that are too high. P O Ackley, too, used CHE as an indicator. In developing these loads, development was stopped when .0005" CHE was observed. The load was then reduced 1.5gr and CHE measured again. At this pressure level I have over eight reloads on the cases used and observe no deterioration. All fired primers looked normal, primer pockets are tight and bolts opened without resistance. On pluger ejector rifles, no case marks were observed with the loads above.

Accuracy: as some development occured (I tested 22 loads, altogether), accuracy would drop off; anything delivering less than 1.5MOA was discarded as a potential "Standard Load". Some loads delivered subMOA accuracy but didn't show velocity potential for the case/bullet. IMO and for my hunting needs, any load delivering 1 to 1.25MOA has adequate accuracy for any field useage. The best accuracy, FYI, was a pre64 Model 70 @ .72" aggregate for three five shot groups @ 100yds, however, the Krieger barreled 300 WSM was the most consistent @ .85" aggreate for all eight loads.

300WSM: this cartridge was easy to load to 3,000fps, easier than the 06, however, the CHE would go up quickly from the .0005" as 3,000fps was exceeded.

PaulS, I hope the above is of interest to you. I hasten to add that the above noted loads are with the TSX bullet, were carefully developed around that bullet and should be used as a guideline only when considering that bullet with all other caveats that go along with judicious handloading.

And finally, this observation. Knowing the maxium potential of a given firearm may be less critical than other considerations, but, it is valuable information nonetheless. Once I know the maximum velocity potential with a given load, I will typically back off 5% to incorporate a safety allowance for temperature variations. Ultimately, placing the properly constructed bullet in the proper place determines success.

My conclusion is that the venerable 06 still remains one of the great choices for the title of All Round Rifle in any hunter's battery. Today, it is better than ever. It has enough velocity, for me, to preclude consideration of the 300WSM and other 30 caliber magnums. We are well served by today's components, powders and bullets. They represent an ongoing advance that will continue to be dynamic into the future.
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: The 300 WSM's lessons Reply with quote

shootist wrote:
Hi Handloader..

Now to do some work and perk up my .300SAV

Shootist

300 Savage! Gotta a Model 99? Regardless, the 300 Savage remains one of the great ones.
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