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cast 30-30 boolets
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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tlo7mm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

I have acquired a stash of cast bullets for a 30-30. These bullets are primarily manufactured for cowboy shooting and are not cast ready to accept gas checks. The manufacturer states the bullet will not cause leading providing that you keep the velocities under 1500 fps. I have no idea what powder I should use and how can I determine the best starting point in order to keep the velocity under 1500 fps. I have some 100 grain and 135 grain bullets. Does anyone have any suggestions. I will also be loading cast bullets for my 40 sw but I am not worried about the velocities on that and data for cast bullets are readily available for the 40.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:58 pm    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

gelandagan should be able to help with that. the only lead load data I have found so far is in my ADI guide and that is for 150 grn loads using AR2205, 2206 or 2207.
Will have a dig around.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:16 am    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

Lyman's reloading manual gives many data on lead bullets.
In my opinion: don't use rifle powders. Better use handgun powders and here you have to test what your barrel likes: rather fast or the powder used for magnum loads in handguns as the .357 RM and .44 RM (as N110, H110, ...)

You can also go the way of Trail Boss.

But honnestly: I think your bullet are a little low in weight to be used in a 30/30. A 100 grs bullet makes me think .30 M1... I have the best results in my Winchesters with the RCBS-mould of 180 grs FN, but that's a GC-bullet. I should try it without gascheck, but I fear bullets with faults in their base are worse than a mistake on the top. And that GC makes a fine round tail...
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:41 am    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

Here are scans from my lyman books that are pretty close to your bullet weights and should help you get started.



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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

1. Use Fast powder - if your gun is less than 50 years old and in good condition, flake type (not ball) pistol powder can be used. eg. RedDot
I reckon 8 gn is good to start.
Max pressure would be in about 20000psi, with theoritical 1500fps from 20 inch barrel.
OTOH this is a 46% load fill density, I am quite comfortable this this LD but some are not.


2. use slow powder
eg H870 , Retumbo etc, you can load to 100% but powder burn will only be 25% or so, resulting in dirty barrel full of un burnt powder.
Pressure will be at about 12000psi and you might get huge fireball infront of barrel due to the unburnt powder.
This gonna be fun.

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TRBLSHTR
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

Very Happy hey tlo7mm-I think that for safety sake,and flexibility-that I would go with this trail boss,as it is unlikely that you can overload this round,and it is supposed to not foul the bore as bad as some other powders.Hodgdons powders

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

someone suggested trail boss elsewhere?? what say you batman???

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tlo7mm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

The gun I am loading for is a 1930's model 94 with a 20" barrel. I am looking at keeping the velocities down in order to keep the leading under control. I am not familiar with cast bullets of any sort but understand that the quality of the bullet determines what velocity the round can be pushed at before leading occurs. I am not sure if anyone on here is familiar with Badman bullets but you can check them out at www.badmanbullets.com/.../index.php
I have 135 grain fn 30 cal bullets and 100 grain fn. I discovered that they are not made to accept a gas check which is what I had intended to put on them in order to fire them at faster velocities.

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

You can try to use the checkless gascheck.
They are very thin aluminum or copper gaschecks that you place on standard non gascheck boolits.
On application the gascheck would swage the boolit minutely and cover the butt end of the boolit just like you are using normal gascheck.

The two formulas I put above has pressure less than 22000 psi which are well within the capability of a model 94 which is about 44000 psi range.

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TRBLSHTR
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
someone suggested trail boss elsewhere?? what say you batman???
Very Happy I saw that Elvis-and it was aloys that offered up that tidbit on trail boss-i just reinforced it!I've got manuals that give many diff't shotgun and pistol powders-but there are some specific details to watch for that can reek havoc on guns and shooters-so that's why I recommended the safest being trail boss. Very Happy

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

There are a lot of things that conribute to leading:
bore finish - in an older gun this is rarely a problem.
bore diameter (grove and land diameter) in older guns you may need a bullet that is a larger diameter than for a gun with fewer shots through it.
throat and lead size and finish.
The hardness and age of the bullet.
The type and amount of lube used.
The temp of the powder as it burns.

If you find that you have leading problems and you are sure that your velocity is within the makers specs you might try paper patching a few to see if the extra diameter helps.

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

Caution about trailboss.
Although they are very bulky and can fill the cartridge nicely, they are also a FAST powder.
A 100% Load density of trailboss would create pressure up to 55000 psi very briefly in the chamber of a 30-30,
This is within the safety range of MODERN rifle but may damage older models.
This fact is well published by Thales (ADI), Hodgon and IMR.

I suggest to start from 70 to 80% load density with trailboss and work up to target velocity, but not to exceed 90% LD.

I do not like trailboss on bottle neck cartridges because of the high VOD, it shocks the boolit so much that it would lead the barrel a lot more than other powders.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:02 am    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

My mind is completely folowing Geland. I only use Trail Boss when looking for the low side borders. I don't use it to give more speed to a lead bullet.

And when you have a 20" barrel I would suggest you try this handgun magnum powders as N110, H110 etc. they are slow for handguns but fast for rifles and I think they can surprise you.

And 1 more thing: when shooting such loads I always lift the front of the barrel up, tap the rifle and then start aiming. It might do nothing, but I'm feeling better when thinking all my powder is seated close to the primer...
(I never use a filler)
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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:25 am    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

N310 is pretty close to Red Dot I think, so the starting load would also be about 8 gn.

I agree with tapping the powder to the back of the cartridge, but if you are using double based nitro powder at over 40% LD,
IMO this may not be necessary for the powder are easily more combustible than single based stuff. Caveat - YMMV

Using N110, H110, W296, AR2205 etc would be quite difficult to get the target velocity, not to mention a bit dangerous for the LD would be less than 45% to get the 1500fps. Shiver..
DO NOT USE THESE POWDERS FOR REDUCED LOAD.. it may cause SEE!! DANGER!!!

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The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:19 am    Post subject: Re: cast 30-30 boolets Reply with quote

Geland, please visit the H&N-site and you will notice that they recommend N110 for their reduced loads using these coated H&N-bullets (comparable with lead bullets).
They use 15 grs N110 behind their 165 grs HS in the 30/30 Win.

Further you will see that they use:
12 grs N110 behind their 110 grs HS in the .30 Carbine
14 grs N110 behind their 160 grs HS in the 7 mm Mauser
16 grs N110 behind their 165 grs HS in the .308 Win (compare this with the 30/30 Win)

the stupid thing is that Vihtavuori is going to stop selling their reloading powders... so maybe in the near future H&N will give other recepies?
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