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What is The Real Max Load?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Vince
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

Below is the page out of my Sierra 2nd Edition Reloading Manual - Pistol Data.

Interesting that they don't list any loads for a .357 Magnum Rifle, which leads me to think that you would use the same loads as for Pistol.

Cheers, Vince



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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:35 am    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

Vince, strange. I have the 3th edition, both rifle and handgun and their data are completely different, even from yours...
I'll try to scan them this evening and wheh you send me an e-mail, you can put them here. One of these days I'll try to understand how to put a picture on a forum Smile
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:41 am    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

Interesting Vince, in my Hornady/Speer/Lyman books have loads similar to what you posted above for pistol data. But you head over to Hodgdon's web site and with 296/H100 powder the loads are what Elvis posted!!! Confused

So it's best to take the speeds they post with a grain of salt and use your own chrony results. Smile



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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

now I have checked again and the cunning fellas at winchester have covered thier butts nicely. the .44 rem mag has handgun loads aswell but no rifle loads.
now if you think about it this is the SAFEST way to publish data. The same thing with .12ga solids they MUST fit through the tightest full choke barrel even though most solids will be fired through less than 1/2 choke.
by doing this joe blow hopefully wont load up handgun rounds using rifle data and improve the gene pool,by only listing handgun loads he will be safe either way.
when my old hunting buddy bought factory rounds for his 357 rossi rifle he always made sure they were labeled rifle as the handgun loads were way less potent.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

The 2011 Hodgdon "Annual Manual" lists a .357 Mag load for a 158 grain Hornady XTP using 16.7 grains of Win 296. From a 10" it gives a velocity of 1591 ft/sec. Doesn't say what action but I'm guessing that was a Contender. The Hornady 7th Edition lists a MAX load of 16.0 grains of the same powder with the same bullet for 1250 ft/sec from an 8" Colt Python. The Hornady 4th Edition lists 16.4 grains of 296 as MAX with a velocity of 1350 ft/sec from a 8.75" S&W Model 27.

When its all said and done I'll stick with the most recent data available and call it good. Powders change over time and pressure measuring devices get better as we go along. If I need more power I'll go to a bigger cartridge.

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

I think you are right Elvis, since all US makers of factory ammo have to follow the Sammi specs for cartridges. Since Sammi lists the max for each cartridge pressure whether or not fired in a rifle or revolver.

Now if you think about it, firing the 44mag with a load from any bullet or powder manufacturer in a revolver will result in lower pressure because of the cylinder gap reduces pressure verses firing the same cartridge in a rifle.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:36 am    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

Our good mate Aloys asked me to post these two scanned pages from his Sierra Reloading Manual, 3rd Edition, for him.

Cheers, Vince



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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:45 am    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

Thanks, Vince.

I only wanted to show the difference between rifle and handgun loads. Never payed that much attention on this myself, but here you see clearly a different approach: for the same bullet other powders, other weights and other velocities. I know it's difficult to compare a revolver with its gap between cylinder and (very short) barrel and a rifle (with longer barrel and no gap). I even think there's supposed to be a great difference in a rifle with a bolt and a lever action.
As for me: I know I have to rework my loads on the .357 RM. I have a S&W 586 with 4 " barrel for years and I just used the same rounds for the Marlin I received a few years ago. According our laws the .357 RM does not give enough energy at 100 m to be used at roedeer. They don't make any diffirence between energy in the bullet and the potential to transfer this energy to the animal. And also the .357 RM can hardly be called OK for longer distances. That's why I never did any effords to optimilize its load.
Looking at the differences now, I know I should have done that.
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Vince
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:19 am    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

Glad I could help mate.

Well mate...the 586 in .357 Mag certainly isn't a long distance gun or calibre...but just for a giggle one day I took mine down onto the 300m SMR Range when I was in the Army. I was hitting targets at 300m with my magnum loads...(banging head against wall trying to remember the load)...I think from memory the bullet weight was 155gn, the powder was 2400, but for the love of me I can't remember the charge...about 15gn - 16gn, something like that. The rounds were hitting hard enough, and knocking the target down, for the hit to register on the board, but I am not sure if they were actually penetrating the plastic target medium.

I had to aim at the target, then raise the gun about 12 inches or so keeping it inline with the target...took me a few shots to get on target, but once I had the elevation it wasn't a problem. After firing I had time to lower the pistol and watch for the fall of shot. Laughing Laughing It was a lot of fun, which is all it was intended to be.

Cheers, Vince

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inthedark
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

Vince wrote:
Glad I could help mate.

Well mate...the 586 in .357 Mag certainly isn't a long distance gun or calibre...but just for a giggle one day I took mine down onto the 300m SMR Range when I was in the Army. I was hitting targets at 300m with my magnum loads...(banging head against wall trying to remember the load)...I think from memory the bullet weight was 155gn, the powder was 2400, but for the love of me I can't remember the charge...about 15gn - 16gn, something like that. The rounds were hitting hard enough, and knocking the target down, for the hit to register on the board, but I am not sure if they were actually penetrating the plastic target medium.

I had to aim at the target, then raise the gun about 12 inches or so keeping it inline with the target...took me a few shots to get on target, but once I had the elevation it wasn't a problem. After firing I had time to lower the pistol and watch for the fall of shot. Laughing Laughing It was a lot of fun, which is all it was intended to be.

Cheers, Vince
I engaged the 200m gongs 4x6, 6x8, 6x12 and was ringing them pretty good with my 9mm 115gr ball. My old supervisor was shooting with us and he couldn't believe I was actually hitting anything at that range. It may not have the power to kill at that range but it sure would be keeping a guy's head down.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

inthedark wrote:
Vince wrote:
Glad I could help mate.

Well mate...the 586 in .357 Mag certainly isn't a long distance gun or calibre...but just for a giggle one day I took mine down onto the 300m SMR Range when I was in the Army. I was hitting targets at 300m with my magnum loads...(banging head against wall trying to remember the load)...I think from memory the bullet weight was 155gn, the powder was 2400, but for the love of me I can't remember the charge...about 15gn - 16gn, something like that. The rounds were hitting hard enough, and knocking the target down, for the hit to register on the board, but I am not sure if they were actually penetrating the plastic target medium.

I had to aim at the target, then raise the gun about 12 inches or so keeping it inline with the target...took me a few shots to get on target, but once I had the elevation it wasn't a problem. After firing I had time to lower the pistol and watch for the fall of shot. Laughing Laughing It was a lot of fun, which is all it was intended to be.

Cheers, Vince
I engaged the 200m gongs 4x6, 6x8, 6x12 and was ringing them pretty good with my 9mm 115gr ball. My old supervisor was shooting with us and he couldn't believe I was actually hitting anything at that range. It may not have the power to kill at that range but it sure would be keeping a guy's head down.

Exactly mate...harrassing fire...although more like annoying. Laughing

I remember reading somewhere many years ago that the 9mm round, at an elevation of 800 mils would travel approximately 1900 metres. Never bothered to test it out, but it wouldn't surprise me...especially when you consider the range, and reasonably accurate range at that, that the old black powder shooter could get out of the 45.70 round.

Cheers, Vince

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Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
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inthedark
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

Vince wrote:
inthedark wrote:
Vince wrote:
Glad I could help mate.

Well mate...the 586 in .357 Mag certainly isn't a long distance gun or calibre...but just for a giggle one day I took mine down onto the 300m SMR Range when I was in the Army. I was hitting targets at 300m with my magnum loads...(banging head against wall trying to remember the load)...I think from memory the bullet weight was 155gn, the powder was 2400, but for the love of me I can't remember the charge...about 15gn - 16gn, something like that. The rounds were hitting hard enough, and knocking the target down, for the hit to register on the board, but I am not sure if they were actually penetrating the plastic target medium.

I had to aim at the target, then raise the gun about 12 inches or so keeping it inline with the target...took me a few shots to get on target, but once I had the elevation it wasn't a problem. After firing I had time to lower the pistol and watch for the fall of shot. Laughing Laughing It was a lot of fun, which is all it was intended to be.

Cheers, Vince
I engaged the 200m gongs 4x6, 6x8, 6x12 and was ringing them pretty good with my 9mm 115gr ball. My old supervisor was shooting with us and he couldn't believe I was actually hitting anything at that range. It may not have the power to kill at that range but it sure would be keeping a guy's head down.

Exactly mate...harrassing fire...although more like annoying. Laughing

I remember reading somewhere many years ago that the 9mm round, at an elevation of 800 mils would travel approximately 1900 metres. Never bothered to test it out, but it wouldn't surprise me...especially when you consider the range, and reasonably accurate range at that, that the old black powder shooter could get out of the 45.70 round.

Cheers, Vince
We used to piddle around with the 45s when I was in the US infantry and engage targets for the hell of it. Most of the older guys really helped the younger guys coaching them to be able to do it as the last thing any of us ever would want to do is engage in hand to hand combat. Like you said it is harassing fire and it was fun doing it. Old Grunts with old ways... General Reject Unfit for Normal Training. LMAO Wink

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TRBLSHTR
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

Shocked To those who don't believe in therange capabilities of a .357mag revolver;I read a story years back about a man named ED MCGIVERN-Ed was a sponsored trick shooter for smith and wesson for years and held timed fast shooting exhibitions for smith and wesson for sales to the public.Later he also held demonstrations and schools for the FBI and the military about smith and wesson revolvers.One interesting incident was that he was training an FBI agent,and that agent went on to set some sort of world record witha 357mag smith with an 8+3/8" barrel by shooting a human silouette 120+ times out of 150 shots at [b]600 yards!Now that is some shooting!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:24 pm    Post subject: Re: What is The Real Max Load? Reply with quote

Outstanding!

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