Velocity vs Barrel Length for a Shotgun

chambered221

It's one of the hardest things to do.....teach a rifle shooter how to shoot a shotgun !!!

The first thing you need to do is understand the difference between aiming a rifle and pointing a shotgun. Most guys will argue they know the difference but the fact is all their muscle memory and subconscious thinking revert back to rifle shooting.

If you want to be good at both you need to create a difference in your mind so that you'll apply the correct method for the appropriate discipline. This can be accomplished by simply telling yourself what you'll be doing and reminding yourself of the basics that will be applied. Eventually you'll create a sub consciousness mind set for each discipline.

Regardless the method you use (swing through, sustained lead or pull away) 100% of your focus should be on the object you are intending to hit.
Again, until you have the proper mind set you'll revert to rifle shooting and your eyes will be looking back at the bead for alignment. You'll swear your not doing it but the fact that your not following through is an indication you might be doing so.

An easy way to teach yourself follow through is to practice swinging your gun. In your backyard if possible with a unloaded gun, find 2 reference points such as 2 trees. Pick a spot on each about 10 foot off the ground, find the center point between the two. Start at one tree swinging to the other, at that half way point dry fire the gun and say bang, boom or something similar and continue to the other tree without stopping. Once you reach the stop point un-mount pause re-mount and repeat going back to first tree. As your doing this be sure you have a hard focus out in the skyline and not on your front bead.
Doing this 5-10 minutes a day will reinforce your mind set.

Also remember to tell yourself what your doing and your doing it with a shotgun before starting.

chambered221

stovepipe wrote:

I also say if one think's the gun is holding your scores back they are wrong, it's all mental with shotgunning, 100% mental. Guys were killing it in double-trap and skeet long before I came along.....with field pumps!

If you were to take a look back in the record books when the Model 12 Winchester ruled the clays world you'll find the perfect scores weren't as common as they are today.

Skeet shooters use over/unders and trap shooters use dedicated single barrel trap guns because their designs have been proven better for their respective disciplines.
I agree it's all mental but you do have to have the right tool for the job if you want to consistently win !!!

chambered221

slimjim wrote:

________ slug ___ 1oz Shot 7 1/2
18-inch _ 1530 ___ 1060
26-inch _ 1580 ___ 1125

Whose shotshell ammo you using..... what's the velocity listed at ???

slimjim

chambered221 wrote:

Whose shotshell ammo you using..... what's the velocity listed at ???

Winchester 20 gauge Heavy Game Load 7 1/2 shot, 1 oz, 1165 fps

Elvis

its not how long it is is how you use it that counts!!!! Very Happy

as for your coment about teaching a rifle shooter to use a shotgun....
well teach someone to use the shoty 1st cause running shots come naturally then. and just for the record as someone who shot bunnies all day everyday for months on end with a shotty. if they are sitting still you use it like a rifle!!!
you take what you can get and I still out shoot most guys using either of the single barrel shotys I used then,I use my pump more often now but shot for shot would do better with the old baikal. why then do I use the pump? follow up shots to finish the bird off.

Vince

Chambered the Shotgun Coach wrote:

...It's one of the hardest things to do.....teach a rifle shooter how to shoot a shotgun !!!

The first thing you need to do is understand the difference between aiming a rifle and pointing a shotgun. Most guys will argue they know the difference but the fact is all their muscle memory and subconscious thinking revert back to rifle shooting.

Mate...you are 100% correct. I have been a rifle shooter since 1969 when I bought my first rifle, and a shotgun shooter, on a regular basis, for 12 months. Everything I learned in the Army about shooting revolved around rifles and I'm damned if I can get this mindset and muscle training out of my system. I regularly stop the shotgun and "rifle" it when shooting clays, and of course I miss. The hardest thing I have ever had to do, as far as shooting is concerned, is to stop aiming and learn/teach myself to swing through and keep the gun moving. Mad

I'll keep practicing. One thing I do know though is that I have twice as much fun as the rest of the shooters at our Clays Club 'cause I shoot twice as many rounds...two at every target. Very Happy

One strange thing though is I don't have any problems in the field chasing bunnies with my shotgun...rarely miss with the first barrel.

Cheers, Vince

stovepipe

chambered221 wrote:

If you were to take a look back in the record books when the Model 12 Winchester ruled the clays world you'll find the perfect scores weren't as common as they are today.

Skeet shooters use over/unders and trap shooters use dedicated single barrel trap guns because their designs have been proven better for their respective disciplines.
I agree it's all mental but you do have to have the right tool for the job if you want to consistently win !!!

Um- the reason scores got better was due to ammo and clays improvement. Things are WAY more consistent than they were 30 years ago.

Agreed on the equipemnt finer points.... but them old master were way better shots than any of us will be, they did way more with less. I'll get my books and list some names of past skeet and trap master and their notes if you like? They all agree the reasons the scores went up is primairily due to the birds being more consistent and the ammo getting better. One gent used the same Rem pump for 30 or 40 years, I'm bad with names so...sorry. The reason they were so good was they kept their head down and mind on the game and kept the connection between their brain and trigger finger going...which I fail to do a lot, and that's why I dont get a clean run shooting handicap from 25y with a mod choke and 20g 7/8oz. Ya gotta concentrate, HARD. Gun has didly to do with it.

And I'm off topic again! Laughing

chambered221

stovepipe wrote:

And I'm off topic again! Laughing

Yes we are....not like it's the first thread this has happened to !!! Shocked

Slim will reel us in if needed...... right Slim ???

wtf

I knew what your response would be before you even posted it. Poke

I won't dispute ammo has played a role in scores getting better it has.
Talk to anyone who has gone through the evolution of clays shooting and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that wants to return to their original guns for score shooting.

Skeet shooters had to maintain 4 separate guns that no matter what they did could not achieve the same balance, swing and feel, that lead to inconsistent results.
When Claude Purbaugh started making aluminum tube inserts the world of skeet was changed forever.

When Browning introduced the BT99...... what more needs to be said ???

stovepipe

Copy that. Agreed on all accounts.

chambered221

Man you be taking the fun out of this !!!

Slim.....thinking about a 12ga perhaps ???

What are you seeing that made you do some testing ???

stovepipe

chambered221 wrote:

Man you be taking the fun out of this !!!

You made some valid points, and, I agreed.

I value your experience and input. *hug*

Shocked

No, really...good points were made by all.

Though I liked mine best............ Razz

slimjim

This has been a fun thread and I learned more than I anticipated.

I don't think I can change my "rifle" ways and would probably use a red-dot if I do much "wing" shooting with the shotgun.

chambered, why do I need a 12 gauge? The shot velocity isn't going to be any faster is it? I use 1 oz loads. Most econo 12ga shells have the same shot load or maybe 1 1/8 oz.

slimjim

chambered221 wrote:

What are you seeing that made you do some testing ???

I had my chrony out doing some rifle work. I had both barrels for the shotgun with me. I was doing some patterning work plus figuring out where the slugs were going getting ready for the next tactical shotgun match. I was switching to the 26-inch barrel to get more velocity and tighther choke for more knock down power. The chrony was up so shot the slugs and shot through it just to see.

Aloysius

wing-shooting with a red-dot? I should try it, but I don't believe it will work. Here they say that the barrel of a shotgun will do the shooting, but its stock does hit or miss.
And a longer barrel only for sight-radius and swing-trough? How to explain the mighty shooting with a light cal 20 double? A light thing is easier and faster to point!
On the other hand: a short shotcolum usualy gives better grouping. So 1 Oz shot in a cal 12 and 1 Oz in a cal 20, both with full choke, the 12 will shoot tighter.

Just a question: when barrellength doesn't have influence on speed or grouping, why did they produce these shotguns with a 3-4 yards barrel for that special competitionshooting? Just for fun?
But it's hard to predict how a certain barrel will perform without shooting it. So many things have their influence, going from headspace, shotshellfit, forcing cone, barrel diameter and smoothness, barrellenght, shape and size of choke...
Just look for the best ammunition for that barrel and its performance on the desired distance. Hunting rabbits using a furret needs a different approach than passing gooses, ducks or doves.

Vince

Aloys wrote:

...Just look for the best ammunition for that barrel and its performance on the desired distance. Hunting rabbits using a furret needs a different approach than passing gooses, ducks or doves.

So true Aloys...I handload for my 12g and I am getting very close to settling on a load that it seems to like...26 grams of #7.5 shot pushed by 20 grains of PROMO...about 1325 fps.

I recently bought an adjustable butt pad plate from Stock Positioning Systems and it works a treat. I didn't need to extend the length of pull, so this system is perfect for me. Part of the problem I have with my gun is that it is not a fancy, all singin', all dancin' Trap gun...it is a field gun, a sporter...which is what I want because I purchased it with the primary use of chasing bunnies (not allowed to shoot ducks here...mongrel greenies).

As Aloys mentioned at the start of his post...the barrel of a shotgun will do the shooting, but its stock does hit or miss. The cast and shape of the stock is really what gets you on aim correctly...assuming you mount the gun the same each time. I thought about a fancy replacement butt stock, then thought...nah...be a pain in the butt transitioning between stocks for different uses of the gun.

Cheers, Vince