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12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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Joined: Nov 27, 2011
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

I'm visiting here to talk about the 12ga From Hell and
other developements it has led to.Nice site you folks have.
I'm with a group of experimenters passing on the years of
info and pictures to all gun nuts around the net, about
12ga From Hell and other big bores. We have posted some
round the net about our many ideas we have implemented for
12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga,28ga,20ga,16ga, and my 585HE/700HE wildcats.

The idea for the 12ga FH, and the first gun built for it,
was Rob Garnicks on the AR Forums. In the first picture,
a heavy duty Borchardt falling block. He has gotten
1000 gr to 3000 fps in this, a high pressure action.

Then I and others joined in and set up a big variety
of guns for the case. The case, a brass case 3.85" long,
made from BMG brass expanded out with straight sides,
to take 12ga .729" dia slugs and a 12ga size rim added on.
Also we get turned brass cases from Rocky Mtn Cart of that
length and shorter. Many guys used 3.5" cases, as standard
reamers are available, and 12ga 3.5" guns are available,
so that they could shoot 3.5" plastic also. Our 3.85" chamber
and 3.5" will shoot any of the shorter cases.
In our work we found ways to get over a third more velocity
in shorter plastic and brass cases using slower powders
than regular fast shotgun powders. We reloaded fast
rifle powder, IMR 4759, IMR 4227, in larger amounts
and got 600gr hard lead slugs over 1800 fps in 24" barrels,
and were lab tested to be at or under magnum shotgun
pressures that are used in factory 3.5" loads.

More pictures, the 2nd showing long brass 12ga FH case with
regular 12ga case. Other 12ga FH guns are next,3rd Nef Ultra
heavy barrel with length added, 4th Nef 8ga made by boring
out heavy barrel 10ga, 5th FBW falling block,my 585HE belted
case.The FBW has a 20ga 3.5" extra barrel also.
.And we also worked with 8ga,4ga, in falling blocks, 20ga,16ga
in break actions, and my wildcat 585HE,700HE in various actions.

6th picture is our big cartridges from 2 bore on down, in
order-2bore- 4ga- 8ga- 10ga- 12ga FH- 700HE--700H 3.25- 30-06..
7th picture is 4bore falling block we built on our design.
Our 4bore is 1 inch bore.We also helped in getting the barrel
threads larger in the new large MRC PH bolt action to fit our
cases like the 700H 3.25" shown in 8th picture in MRC.

9th picture is an 8bore bolt gun a guy on another forum built
from scratch.Last is Savage 210 that Bret in MN set up with
heavy barrel and a recoil reducer put into the hollow stock.
Shown with boot off so you can see the build. He has gotten
saboted 500gr slugs over 3000 in this.We will post a bunch
more info and we welcome your ideas and help. And we'll give
all the help we can to folks ..Ed Hubel

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Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 13370
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Welcome aboard Hubel....grab a beer and pull up a stump mate. Thanks for the kind words about The Nut...great bunch of guys here.

Those guns and stats are simply scary mate...what do you use these cannons for?

Cheers, Vince

Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
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Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 966
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Uhhh...makes my shoulder hurt just looking!

Welcome to the forum.

If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!

The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.

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Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 365
Location: Central Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

On at least a couple of forums, the "12 gauge from hell" thread is the longest running over the past several years of any I'm aware of. Personally, I don't see the point in such a gun and I shoot a 458 Lott and 378 Weatherby from the bench neither of which are braked and I don't use a Lead Sled.

But for those who don't mind dislocated shoulders, retinal detachments, etc., by all means get you a 12 gauge from hell.
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Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1043
Location: Lower 48's-left coast(near portlandia)

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Shocked wtf You gotta be kidding-my 50 kicks bad enough! Sad

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." Thomas Mann
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Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 2985
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Been following this on another form, interesting that the ME of some of these loads exceed the power of a 50 bmg by almost a 1/3rd.


Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds.
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Posts: 154

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

The secret to more power is more bore size as the efficiency
goes up quite a bit with the same amounts of powder. and
our long cases hold lots of powder.As for recoil-- weight,
double thick pads, porting all help.
We get asked about legality and whether these big cartridges
are DDs. First of all; all shotgun calibers over 50cal are exempt from
being classified as DDs under Title 18 GCA Section 921....
And it doesn't matter what exciting or promo name we call them,
the barrels are still marked for gauge. They can be called 12ga 3 Inch
Super Magnum, 12ga Goose Magnum, 12ga From hell, 12ga 3.5 Express,
12ga Hammerhead, etc, they still are a 12ga case of some length.
And length doesn't matter as long as shorter cases, with straight
sides, and same 12ga(or whatever gauge)base size fit and fire in
longer chambers. IE; 2.5, 2.75, and 3" firing in 3.5", and all of these
firing in our 3.85" longer chamber. IE; you can't take 37mm cannon
shell and neck it to 12ga and have an automatically exempt 12ga
cartridge, as other shorter 12 gauges would not fit/fire in chamber,
and you'd have to get it exempt as sporting. How-
Under the same Section any other over 50cal non-shotgun
cartridge can be classified as Exempt For Sporting Use by
applying for the exemption, like I have done for my cases,and many
others(JDJ-AHR-Etc) have done, as well as cases already sporting
from the old days. Now as for hunting rules in shotgun areas,
game depts may say that you can't use long range spitzer bullets
but must use traditional blunt slugs, for safety. Hunting rules are
varied all over the place.

More history of firsts, in our 12ga FH and big bore work.

The first gun of mine to have this case was
my Savage 210 in first picture with a regular style
heavy stock. Later changed to thumbhole stock.
I changed barrel to heavy bull barrel and
chambered it for the 12ga FH 3.85" long case.

Second picture is the first NEF 12ga Ultra that we put
the first 12ga fH case in. I only had to lengthen chamber.
The same gun now has long barrel and thumbhole stock.

Third picture is first NEF 10ga heavy barrel that we put
the 10ga FH in. Gun came with long 30" heavy barrel.

Fourth picture is the first 8ga test gun we built using the
super strong 8ga kiln cases with the belt step swaged
down. It is an Enfield that we reamed out to take the
case, like the 12ga Mauser 12ga conversions were done.
And we added extra rear bolt lugs for strength.

Fifth picture is the 1st gun my 585HE was put in.
It is an Enfield and gets 750gr bullet 2700 fps.

And in the vein of old time gun actions, of which are various falling
blocks, we like them also for the hairy big bores, like the 8bore and
4bore ones we made over the years, that are pictured above.
Following are 3 pictures of various parts and processes of making the
action, using easy to get small parts, lever, trigger, hammer, etc,
and the action block, breach block from steel blocks in 1st pic.

Last 2 pictures are the FBW brand falling blocks, one which is the
Model L that we adapted to the one piece stock and the other is the
smaller Model S with regular two piece stock. Both are set up with
my 585HE. I can run full pressure in the 585.

The Model L, I can switch to a 20ga barrel, 600NE barrel,
and my 700HE using moderate loads. Last pic is Model L with
thumb hole stock, and my 585HE case in the action..Ed

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Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 3478
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Just because it is a 12 ga doesn't mean it is legal - the twelve gauge 10 shot revolver shotguns have been banned in washington state - and they were chambered for the most common cartridge in use - the 12 ga 3".
I can see it being classed as a class III weapon in Washington (the state).

Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
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Posts: 154

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

They only banned the gun-- not 12ga cases of
any construction,, of any length, or of
any crimp, whether paper. plastic, drawn brass, turned brass,
, aluminum, steel, etc, and no matter how much speed they
have. My guns are all single shot.Bolt, break action,etc. non banned.
Some new factory sabots go twice as fast as old slug loads,
the factory hammerhead slug has twice the energy as old factory
slugs. All legal. Our 3.5" plastic case loads have as much energy as
458 WIN, brass cases more. All legal.

Now some info on cases and slugs
The 50 BMG brass can be made into some real
great cartridges, our 12ga FH, shown first, showing
cases with rim turned off and threaded; and the 12ga rim
pieces to be screwed on, with finished cases shown.
And 2nd making my 700HE showing original BMG case,
case with belt only, and then expanded out to 700cal.
This makes a super strong big bore case, as I have
fired some 25 times and case is still good.And
it in my big Vulcan bolt gun gets a 1000gr to 3200.

3rd picture shows our 4bore/ga case with slugs, and
the 20mm case we make them from. They match the 4bore
turned cases that are used in the Ken Owen doubles.
4th the Rocky Mtn Cartridge, 12ga turned 3.5" cases
with variety of slugs and sabots.In picture first loaded
one is BPI sabot, then 730gr Dixie, then 600gr Dixie,
then RG Henson's solid nose and his hollowpoint.
RMC can make cases any length and any gauge.
5th shows a 12ga FH and 10ga FH we made using steel
basecups taken from 12 and 10 ga cases. We turned down
bases a few thousands of the original brass cases
and epoxied the bases. Used BMG case s for 12ga and
50cal Russian for 10ga.This research came from a
another forum poster, like over half of what we do.Ed

More pictures of 12ga slugs and saboted slugs.
1st The US-S sabot/slug, with the green locked on base,
along with others.The US-S slug is nearly as accurate
in smoothbores, for which it is made, as sabots are
in rifled. those pictured are heavier than most other
brands of saboted slugs.

2nd a Jacketed 730gr by RG Henson and a hard,heat treated
600gr by Dixie Slugs in FL, both full bore slugs,
3rd a BPI sabot with hardcast 440gr, .504"
diameter slug. BPIs were intended to use .500" bullets
used in 500S&W, the little larger ones we use seem
little more accurate.Makes tighter fit in rifled barrels.
4th other sabots we tested , 5th brass turned slugs
and there are many other slugs/sabots we'll show..Ed

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Quite a few have wanted doubles in our 12GA long case.
Rob is doing one on a big 10ga Zabala double,with Greener
crossbolt lock. He is replacing 10ga barrels with heavy
12ga rifled barrels, mono-blocked into the 10ga breaches
by threading them into the breach sections.
First,2nd,3rd pictures. He is now building and getting
barrel ribs done and the gun regulated.

4th picture is my 700HE in a Vulcan bolt action.
5th is the 6gal water pail from the Youtube video, atomizing.
The pail was heavy plastic, full and sealed tight.
That was 12ga 600gr hollow point slug about 3000 fps.

CASES-1st is comparison of 12ga FH brass cases, with ours on the
left we made using bmg brass, and 3 on the right that
are of a few we found already done in 12ga size, that is
as long as ours.RMC makes them long as ours and any length needed.
2nd is our long case next to short one.You can see how much
thicker and stronger our case is.

3rd is a slug made for rifled, for use in 12ga wadcup, and it
being 16ga size works in our 16ga FH case also, as shown.
4th shows 20ga RMC cases and dies we have found for them.

5th shows 1500gr 4bore slugs a guy cast for me and cases.
These are hollowbase, as our 4 and 8 gauges on the falling
blocks, are smoothbore. Top loads with these 25-2700.Ed

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:39 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

I waaaant one!!!! look out you pesky bambis hiding behind that tree now...

You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Some more gun info about what others around the world
are doing with big bores. First is a 4bore Tula pump
gun, made in Russia. A few guys in the US have them.
They are smoothbore and .938" bore. They used a short
3" long plastic case, and we helped some of the
owners get a run of brass cases by Rocky Mtn Cartridge.
Big Al, a poster on the AR Big Bore Forums owns one.
Our 4bore case is a full 1" bore 4.05" long.
Many early 4bores for shot were set up with .935-938"
smooth bores.

Second is a bolt gun a guy in Europe did in 1" bore
using 20mm brass expanded, ending up for
headspacing, a small shoulder. It is full length like
ours, instead of shortened like other pipsqueak ones.
3rd is our big and small falling blocks, big one
the 4bore we made and other a FBW Model L in 585HE.
Both stocks need finishing in these pictures
and metal surfaces has to be finished...I'm not a
fancy, finish smith and to busy experimenting,
to get everything real fancy.

4th is a 20ga FH 3.5" chamber break action. It is a
CBC and we monoblocked in a heavy long 20ga barrel.
5th is a Mauser 12ga GEHA conversion, that had real
light barrel and cracked stock. We put the extra
Savage 12ga 24", rifled slug barrel we had in it, and
used the strong Savage plastic stock. Still has original
3" chamber and we test our slow powder 3" plastic loads.
Great load with full bore slug, is 600gr Dixie, using
90gr IMR4759, going 1800. This load was lab tested
and verified for speed and only runs plastic case, magnum
shotgun pressures.

More info on cases, first is our cases where we put in a
bushing to use shotgun primers. Also some of the guys
shorten the cases for use in 3" and shorter chambers.
Magtech makes 2.5" 12ga drawn brass cases that guys
are reloading for use in short actions, like 1887 leverguns.
2nd is 8ga plastic cases we use, the left 2 are
REM and clear is WIN. These can be gotten at BPI
and Precision Reloading. We use roll crimp on
these for slugs and sabots.
1100gr at 2000 is a good load. 9 triple ought buckshot
is a good load. Totals 630gr for the 9, goes 2500
if you want hairy load.

3rd are 8 and 10 ga hard cast slugs with hollowbases, we use.
4th is some of our wildcat cartridge stuff, my 585HE cases,
die sets, and reamers. Dies are by CH4D, reamers by Manson.
5th is our 585HE in two break actions, a CBC and NEF.
Both set up by mono-blocking in 585 heavy barrels...Ed

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

I want one of each. Hows about a -4 Bore???


War is sweet to those who have no experience of it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach - Pindar 518-438BC
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Posts: 154

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:22 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

I don't sell guns -- Next rear wil lhave final plans so you can
do your own or havw a smith do it.

Some more gun info. Here is picture of a nice, large diameter
action a fellow built, for big bore use.Nice beautiful machine
work, He put a 700 short case in it. He called it 700WTF.
It would do 12ga, 16ga, 20 ga, etc.

Second is the 8 bore we just made on falling block. It is
chambered for now for the 8ga 3.3" heavy duty plastic
case that we use. That we get by swaging the belt down on
the new 8ga kiln cases, that BPI and Precision Reloading sell.
The chamber fires old original 8ga cases also, but a regular
kiln load not swaged, won't chamber, a safety factor for guns not
as strong as the falling block. Guys in the UK gave me the idea
of swaging down the belt on kiln cases, as they did it
to get cases for their old 8ga doubles.

Third is the Savage 210 we put a 700 cal barrel in and made it
a 700NE. The 700 NE has same rim diameter as 12ga, but a
smaller base, ,020" smaller, Handles the loads fine, as its
factory loads are the same as our top loads in the Savage
with RMC 3.5 brass cases. Before that I had my 700H 3.25"
belted case in it. Worked great.

4th- we made a 28ga FH, a brass case 3.25" long that
RMC made for us. The chamber still fits and fires shorter
28ga plastic cases.Here is one in picture with a 505 Gibbs to show
the size and potential. I put first one in a Mossy 695 bolt gun
with a heavy rifled barrel. The 28ga rifled is same groove
diameter as the 550 magnum, so same diameter slugs work.

5th are couple of our 12ga FH cases guys shortened for
short actions, less recoil. Left are 2 inches,right 2.25"
and some have shortened them to 2.5" for use in
guns that will feed loaded 3" plastic. The 3" loaded plastic
and 2.5" brass with slug are about 2.7" overall..
If you folks have questions we'll help if we can.Ed

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Several years ago when I was at my brother's hunt camp, we all were checking the zero on our rifles prior to elk hunting. One of the co-owners of the camp, Ed, handed me a single shot shotgun, a Mossberg, if memory serves me and told me to shoot at the milk jug that was set up at the target line. I should have realized that something was afoot by the thickness of the recoil pad. I shot at the jug, it blew up, I just about landed on my butt. When he openned the breech up to show me the hull, it was about 5" long. The parent shell was 4" long. Ed said that it was built for sky busting geese. I just don't remember if it was a 12ga or a 10ga.
I should imagine that it was a custom made barrel.


War is sweet to those who have no experience of it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach - Pindar 518-438BC
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