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Broken Case Extraction
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:01 pm    Post subject: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

I was out shooting my 1868 Remington Rolling Block rebarreled in 45-70 last weekend when a case split on me. Excessive head spacing was the prime cause. The front of the case, however, stayed in the chamber. I couldn't pick it out with dental tools. I tried reversing a brass bruch over the broken case but it wouldn't budge. Even penetrating oil was no help. I then took a bullet and inserted into the breech and tapped it forward so it was half-way out of the case (premeasured and marked the rod). Then I tapped the bullet back out from the muzzle. I was glad to see the bullet and case exit the breech. Thought this technique might be useful to others.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

smart thinking

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:10 am    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

Any which way as long as it works!!

Looking at your rolling block, your gunsmith should be able to unscrew the barrel, straighten your breech end and re-set the headspace.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

Very clever! Good work!

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:53 am    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

gelandangan wrote:
your gunsmith should be able to unscrew the barrel, straighten your breech end and re-set the headspace.

This RB is pretty worn. It already has a repair on it where there is a weld line on the bottom back end of the breech block to tighten up the tolerance with the rolling face of the trigger as it strikes. I closely looked at the stack-up last night and you can see the breech pin move slightly in the receiver when you load the action up. I think any gunsmith work to be viable, it needs to address the tolerance in the pins. I am checking with a couple of gunsmiths on my options. I may just JB weld a .010 shim to the face of the breech block and go from there. I mocked it up last night and it looked like a feasible way to go to make the gun safer. I also am changing my brass to Starline which has a thicker case wall.
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

I would either weld the holes up and re machine or machine to slightly larger holes and use a larger pin.
Putting a shim on the face of the rolling block is not really valid. If the shim is epoxied in place the recoil from firing will crush it or dislodge it from the face - silver solder won't hold up much better. If you take the play out of the pins you cure the problem and the gun stays more or less original.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

I was thinking about the need to take the play out of the pins myself this morning and how best to do it. My big concern is how to do it affordably as all the gunsmithing required could cost more than just buying a new Pedersoli.
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fnuser
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

Are there wear marks on the pins themselves, where the Hammer, block rotate on them? if so you may be able to take the slack out with a new set of pins this seems to be rather simple way of gaining a little. also if the pins are wobbling they could be bent a wee bit. again a new set of pins may be the cure.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

fnuser wrote:
a new set of pins may be the cure.

Thanks for the suggestions. I usually find that when I get in these type of situations (where I'm unsure exactly what all the variables are) that its best to go slow. Every time I take a closer look at the rifle, I realize a bit more of what the issues are. I need to look at the pins and the rolling breech and trigger more closely. I think I've figured out a way that I can exactly measure the play in them.

I may check around a couple of vintage gun smiths and see if they have any standardized over-size pins. I also had someone suggest the best way to fabricate new pins is by turning down drill bits.

I love to have projects like this. I'll report back on the pins next weekend. I have to go out of town this coming week.
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

fnuser wrote:
Are there wear marks on the pins?

Well I couldn't wait so I set the rifle up on the table so I could watch the football game at the same time. I got out my micrometers and started measuring. The pins are the culprits! Yes, they have wear marks but not where I expected (no pun intended). The pins are worn more where they contact the receiver block - the ends are thinner than in the middle. I was also surprised to see the trigger pin rotate with the hammer, even though I have Action-Magic (dry moly lube) on the pins and inside the breech and trigger blocks. These are the stack-up.

.008 to .010 pins to breech/trigger blocks
.010 on the breech pin to receiver
.005 on the trigger pin to receiver

I may have to find a better instrument to measure the recieve holes with but they still appear to be round. Looks like if I get some new pins made I may get the tolerances within acceptable limits.
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

For those that haven't seen a Rolling Block action before, they are pretty simple.

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fnuser
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

I don't think you'll have to get them made call gun parts and see if they have any on-hand, Or maybe Dixie gun works would have a new-made set ready to go. Do you have a grizzly catalog they sell tapered pins you could buy one the right size and slip it in since the new pin is round if it had any play in any direction when its foward travel stopped that would tell you if your holes were round.

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fnuser
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

it seems like the breech pin would be the culprit not the hammer pin although if the locking lug on the hammer were worn a replaced hammer might also tighten stuff up.

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Gil Martin
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

All good information. Thanks for sharing. All the best...
Gil

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken Case Extraction Reply with quote

Numrich had some pins in stock but I'll have to call them to see what size they are. Still checking with some gunsmiths.

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