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New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:07 am    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

interesting concept the cast pill going slow..... on another site its been said you dont gain anything by going heavier if say your 150grn is going right through anyway......... you get no more energy transferred and wound channel wont be any bigger.
heres a thought...if I use a pill thats in theory too heavy to stabilize...will it exit suppressor or do I run risk of it going skewif and poking the can?????
seeing loads you are using makes me wonder just how slow my 150s with 7.1grn TB behind them in the x39mm are actually going????

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

Geland, now I will ask how you make a GC from a soda can... I'm trying to escape on this GC cost as in my opinion the price is too high for what it is and then it always hurts when I throw away money...
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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

Aloysius wrote:
Geland, now I will ask how you make a GC from a soda can... I'm trying to escape on this GC cost as in my opinion the price is too high for what it is and then it always hurts when I throw away money...

Here you are.. www.patmarlins.com/pro.../in-stock/
look for PB (plain Base) type.
Damn good investment if you shoot a lot, or buy one to share with friends.

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res45
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
interesting concept the cast pill going slow..... on another site its been said you dont gain anything by going heavier if say your 150grn is going right through anyway......... you get no more energy transferred and wound channel wont be any bigger. heres a thought...if I use a pill thats in theory too heavy to stabilize...will it exit suppressor or do I run risk of it going skewif and poking the can?????
seeing loads you are using makes me wonder just how slow my 150s with 7.1grn TB behind them in the x39mm are actually going????

Elvis,I'm going to dive into this,take it with a grain of salt as there are many bullet caster more knowledgeable about what you ask as well as many book and articles that discuss this. With cast bullets,bullet weights as you go heavier equate to added length because cast lead is not as dense as an equal weight jacketed bullet an here in lies the issues of twist rate vs. velocity vs. bullet type cast or jacketed and length.

In the 7.62 x 39 SKS rifle it shares the same twist rate barrel as the 7.62 x 54r. Since the Russians had been making the 1:10 twist barrels by the millions for the 54r since 1891 they saw no need to make a different twist barrel for the SKS. With cast lead gas checked bullets in the 100 to 190 gr. range the 10" twist RPM threshold is going to limit your velocity to around 1900 fps. If you try to shoot the light weight cast bullets like in the 123 gr. range faster like an equal weight jacketed bullets in the 2300+ range as velocity increases the RPM does as well an accuracy goes south and you just going to sling the bullet apart at some point. So cast bullets in the 150 to 190 gr. range can be fired in the velocity range of 1700 to 1900 fps. an be right in the accuracy zone.

How slow you can shoot those cast bullets,probably in the mid to upper 900 fps. range with 5.5 to 6.0 grs. of Alliant Red Dot with 150 to 180 gr. gas check cast bullets. As to how fast the 150 gr. is going with 7.1 grs. of TB it's probably above subsonic as a 200 gr. cast with 5.5 grs. is going around 900 fps.


As to using a heavier bullet vs. a 150 gr. that goes right through anyway an you get no more energy transfer or increase in wound channel well that’s not entirely true. Going right through is subjective an may only apply to a given target like a deer or smaller game however that same 150 gr. bullet when shot into a wild bore at the same range and velocity may not fully penetrate at all because of the difference in tissue structure. A wild bore has less water density in it's muscle structure an harder bone so the same 150 gr. bullet will do less damage an not penetrate as deep. However a heavier bullet of the same design and fired at the same velocity has more kinetic energy ie impact force as well as forward momentum so it penetrate deeper to the vitals.

Veral Smith of LBT Bullets came up with a formula after many years of testing to find the effective killing potential of cast lead bullet using there meplat diameter. This equates to displacement velocity or DV which translate to how much tissue damage is done by a give bullet meplat size vs. the velocity it travelling at an the formula is,Meplat diameter in thousandths of an inch X Velocity divided by 4. Below is the chart of the estimated size of the exit wound hole based on the formula.

Expect approximate wound diameters straight through the muscle and organ parts of game as follows:

60 to 70 DV 1/2 inch diameter
75 to 90 DV 3/4 inch +
100 DV 1 inch +
125 DV 1 1/4 inch +

If wound diameter goes up to 1 3/8 inch or greater kill speed drops off rapidly, which means game runs quite a way before expiring. With a DV of 100 to 125,lagre game with well place shots in the boiler room almost always fold in their tracks or take a few steps at most. As an example my Lee 30 cal. 170 gr. RNFP GC bullet scores a 105 on the DV chart.

The reason why the 100 to 125 DV range is optimal is because nature has figured out that small wound like a cut need to bleed freely for a while to wash out germs. When a human or animal within reason experiences a large wound nature/biology tells the body to release large amount of clotting agents ie platelets thus slow blood loss,Unfortunately for survival, but fortunately for hunters nature is unable to define the difference in between the small wound and large wound which leaves the optimal wound channel to be exploited. Although the larger wound may an probably will eventually kill most times the animal is lost or found much later when it's not any good.
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

good explination thankyou...... most guys over here are tootooeing with the cast loads in .30 cal and below for use on mainly goats and smaller game thus not much body resistance. and yes I thought I must be close to sunsonic/supersonic barrier as 7.2 goes crack....might just have to dig the gorse out of my pocket and buy a few heavier pills to try without can to see if they stable then put can on.....Ive already dinged the exit hole on it once,think it picked up bit of brush/crap and that caused issue.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

the hardness of the alloy also plays a roll in penetration/expansion. Softer lead will expand but harder lead is required for higher velocity. A gas check on a soft(er) lead bullet can handle the higher velocities and expand reliably on impact with game. I think this is from some of the reading I was doing on paper patched bullets which use softer lead than the "normal" lead bullets in rifles.
I've been looking at this older technique to see if I could use it in my 3006 which has a very generous throat. I'm finding that it would be better in a chamber that was less "generous".

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res45
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

Was able to get out this morning and shoot my 1933 Mosin 91/30 HEX receiver rifle I had reworked a couple months back and try out the new Lee .312" 185 gr. RN bullet I had cast up. The bullets were cast from Wheel Weights + about 2% Tin and quenched straight from the mould. The next day they were sized to .314" in my RCBS Lube A Matic using Lars 2500+ and Gator checks.

Cases were once fired PPU brass I got at the LGS they get from the local gun range. I full length resized the case this time around and trimmed them to proper length and resized the case neck using my NOE .312" expander plug. The throat is pretty deep on this rifle so I couldn't seat the bullet out as far as I wanted so I seated it half way on the middle driving band for this test load. I used 19.0 grs. of Alliant 2400 and Winchester LR primers.

For this test I loaded up 25 rds. as I have installed a MOJO rear aperture sight on the rifle an the original factory post so I knew it would take a few rds. to get it on target an leave the rest to chrono and do some accuracy test. I set my target up at 50 yds. which is a far as I can shoot in the back yard range,below is the final one of two five shot groups from today’s shooting and I had another target with the shots in the orange square area once I made the final sight adjustment but was unable to retrieve it before the weather moved in. After firing those 25 rds. the bore was nice and shiny with only a few burnt powder residue specks here and there. I'm pretty pleased with the initial results an will be trying a couple different loads in a few weeks as well as a couple more of the 2400 loads in larger increments as I have room to increase it.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

Looks like you are getting good results.

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res45
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:58 am    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

A couple of weeks after posting this thread I was able to pick up some H-4895 to test out in my Mosin with cast bullets using the 60% starting load Hodgdon has instructions for on there web site using H-4895 reduced loads.

After calculating my starting load at 60% I just went ahead and move up to 75% for a starting load as I figured I would be close to the original MV I was getting using 19 grs. of 2400. It was pretty much spot on with the three loads I had for testing all grouped as well as the 2400 load with the final load of 33.0 grs. tested giving me a MV of around 1750 fps. on the chrono.

It's was pretty obvious that I needed to do two things with my next batch of test loads,one is to increase the powder charge weight as cases are not fully expanding to seal the neck and when I lube my next batch of test bullets to not lube the top exposed lube groove as it just getting blow off. There were no pressure signs with any of the loads and chrono data was excellent in helping determine the need for a better case fill as all the numbers improved and were more consistent as the charge weight went up with no loss of accuracy.

One of the bright spot was when I shot a batch of 5 test rds. I loaded up on a whim. I came across five Lee 170 gr. GC RNFP bullet that I usually shoot in my 30-30 that I had PC'ed and sized to .314" so I loaded those up using my last set charge weight of 33.0 grs. of H-4895 and got this result. I'm going to have to add some of those to the next test batch I'll be shooting next weekend as well with the higher test charge weight loads.


Last edited by res45 on Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

very tidy...

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res45
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
very tidy...

Thanks Elvis,I'm trying to take this load development slow and get the best accuracy with the highest velocity which doesn't always go hand in hand but I'm shooting loads that are at a higher velocity in the 54r with cast loads than I ever have before by about 150 fps.

Next weekend should tell me more as I plan on stepping up the load in 1 grain increments to about 36 to 38 grs. an see what the paper and chrono tells me an I'll report back. Once I find a load the gun likes I'm going to loads up a big batch to have on hand.

Tomorrow I have to cast up some more of the Lee 185 gr. bullets as my supply is running low.


Last edited by res45 on Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

You're doing a great job of it! That group is worthy of any jacketed ammo!

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res45
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
You're doing a great job of it! That group is worthy of any jacketed ammo!

Thanks Paul,I'm pretty much starting to get closer to the limits of what I can do with naked cast lead and a 1:10 twist bore in the Mosin rifle. You can't spin up those cast lead bullets in that fast a twist bore but to a point before they start to become unstable. Due to the RPM threshold which is an area of velocity where the RPM created by the twist of the bore accentuates any of the defects in cast bullets such as yaw, wobble and pitch of the bullet during flight. Defects in cast bullets are caused by imbalance due to out of round casting, other casting defects, or unwanted obturation during acceleration.

Slower powders like IMR or H-4895 give a gentler acceleration or push than faster powders like 2400 which tend to loose accuracy quicker as the velocity goes up.

If the Mosin had a 1:14 twist bore JUST DREAMING I could increase accuracy / velocity probably in the range of 2400 fps.while keeping the bullets RPM low thus negating the RPM induces defects but it's not a custom rifle. It's just a $100,83 year old original Mosin shooting a cast bullet I made myself from a mold that cost me $23 an if I can get good accuracy say around 2" or less at 100 yds. with iron sights consistently between 1900 and 2K fps. I'll be happy with that.

There is a possibility I can get a bit more out of it by PC'ing my bullets or if I had a core mold and sizer to make a .301" core and paper patched the bullet up to groove dia. I'll probably end up PC'ing some of those 185 gr. bullets once I find the load I want,step it up a notch and see what happens.
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

I like the idea of paper-patching. It doesn't take electricity or fuel to accomplish. It was the first "gas checked' bullet. I have even thought about trying paper patches in my 06.

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res45
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New Moulds for my SKS and Mosin rifles Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
I like the idea of paper-patching. It doesn't take electricity or fuel to accomplish. It was the first "gas checked' bullet. I have even thought about trying paper patches in my 06.

PaulS I dabbled in paper patching with my 54r cartridge a few time just to see if I could do it. I wasn’t trying to push the velocity at all just wanted to take a cast lead bullet I had,size it down as small as I could make it and patch it up to groove dia. an see how they shot. I guess you could say it was basically a test run on the wrapping technique more than anything. The end result was they shot fine and I hit what I was aiming at.


After doing lots of reading I probably broke several of the rule to getting paper patched bullets to shoot accurately at HV who knows as I never really tried to go there. I think it's a really interesting way of shooting cast lead bullets I just don't have the time to add another loading technique to my list of ways to do things. I wish I had the time to get into it like some do.

Don't get me wrong I know how to go about doing it and have the stuff to get alternate loads if I ever run out of the right size cast bullets just not the time. I'm actually going old school as I just recently bought a RCBS lube A Matic on the cheap that came with 10 sizing dies 8 of which I can use with all my current cast bullet need,plus I've been doing quiet a bit of tumble lube powder coating as well.
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