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Full choke's and Steel shot
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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DallanC
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:50 pm    Post subject: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

I went to swap out my boys Full choke tube in his 20GA Mossberg 500 for the Mod choke for a grouse trip, and had a TERRIBLE time trying to remove it. In fact I actually destroyed it to get it out... using a 12" crescent wrench on the choke wrench, I barely got it to turn enough times to get vice grips on it. Even once I got large vice grips on it, it was a absolute BEAR to twist out.

The full choke was well oiled prior to installation, wasnt over tightened. He only shot 20'ish 3" mag steel shot #2's during the youth duck season.

Once I got the full out, the mod choke screwed right in easily with only fingers. I started to wonder if it didnt bulge out with the steel shot. I did some googling and I found alot of discussion where people state Steel + Full choke = BAD! However I re-checked the Mossberg manual and it clearly states:

Quote::
ACCU-CHOKE™ TUBES - are designed for use with LEAD or STEEL shot. Each durable choke tube is clearly marked, as a guide, with the pattern it will produce."

So now I'm at a bit of a loss. The Full went in with fingers prior to shooting that box of steel shot, was stuck good after shooting. Once out, the mod went back in with fingers... so I'm strongly inclined to believe the full bulged somewhat.

Thoughts? I'll probably email Mossberg tomorrow if I can dig up contact info to get their thoughts on this as well.


-DallanC
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tikkat3
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

Everything I have read has said never to use steel with a full choke.
The Beretta manual says 'the best results are obtained with open choke'
Quoting Modified as the tightest.
Tighter chokes than this 'increases barrel wear and tear'
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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

Have you already shot some paper? Your modified choke could have a closer pattern than the full.
There is a rule saying when you want to improve pattern, you have to reduce the amount of powder, so reduce the speed.
Now compare the speed of steel shot with the speed of lead shot, knowing that when a barrel is over-choked it will blow the pattern.

And in my experience there is no problem to use steel shot in a full choke BUT I only use targetloads that way, never magnumloads with heavy shot. A targetload of 1 Oz or less steel # 7 1/2 shot in a cal. 12 full choke is excellent for doves (even very high ones!)
So I would never recommend a magnum load of steel shot #2 for a full choke, it's completely against everything I believe in. I really like to know the answer of Mossberg...
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

we over here are told dont use more than half/modified choke old measure for steel. there is new steel chokes out there now giving full choke patterns but... and its a big but.. the are nearly all outside the barrel not inside like the old flush mounted ones... why??? just incase they bulge. the info also says be very carefull using large steel pellets #bb etc as they "bridge" more easily. I have a imp cyl winchoke that sticks out about 8mm from the muzzle and my steel modified choke sticks out about 25mm the lead modified is flush with muzzle and the constriction is the same according to my choke guage. that said my nephew used a baikal o/u with full and half with steel no dramas probably cause the barrels are plurry heavy/thick at the muzzle.

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:43 am    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

Steel shot + full choke = no no. Modified is the tightest I would ever go with steel shot. I haven't used steel shot in 2 years now since they came out with Bismuth Shot allows using chokes ranging from cylinder bore as tight as extra full as if they were using lead shot.

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

Interesting. Wonder if I can get a replacement choke from Mossberg then as they clearly state in the manual steel is acceptable, yet it did seem to bulge (I'd run a micrometer on it but the vice grips crushed it a bit).

I fired off an email to customer service, explaining everything. We'll see how that goes and maybe they will replace the bulged choke. We'll stick with Mod for everything except turkey from here on out I guess.


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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

Even for turkey I'm not convinced you're better of with the full choke. I can only recommend to try it on paper.
Remember 2 things: heavy shot doesn't listen to the choke as good as small pellets and speed down means tighter pattern.
Now an average speed of steel shot is about 33% higher than lead...

And also in my opinion: don't go for the heavy magnums in steel. Do the calculation and see that 1 Oz of steel has about as many pellets as 1 1/4 Oz of lead in the same size. Do you really need 50% more pellets with steel shot than lead to get the same job done?

For me, with the years the chokes I'm using became lesser and lesser, on the other hand I'm shooting at much greater distances. The nice thing about light cartridges is that usually they also have a higher speed than the heavy loads, so the chance your shot is placed in front of your game is higher than with such a slow heavy load. Now a pellet that's too late to get at your target will never hit it...
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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

With waterfowl steel shot modified gives me better patterns. I even use improved cylder when I have a kid having touble making contact with a duck.

I was once told that the steel pellets bounce off of each other in the full choke and have a lateral vector to their flight causing the broader pattern where lead shot of the same size deforms slightly and does not recoil on collision with the choke wall and the other lead pellets.

Go back to elastic and inelastic collisons in physics class. - lead shot is less elastic while steel shot is very elastic and like a pool ball loses very little energy in the collisons comnpared to lead.

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

This is a very touchy subject regarding lead vs steel shot. In my 40+ years with upland game (Ducks,Geese,,etc) Lead shot wins out int my opinion.

www.northlandoutdoors....her_ID/10/

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

DallanC wrote:
I fired off an email to customer service, explaining everything. We'll see how that goes and maybe they will replace the bulged choke.

Dallan, I have a 20ga Mossberg 500 with extra chokes. I think I even have a steel full I never have used. Let me know if you need one.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

If I remember right Mossberg had two different lines of chokes, one for steel, etc. and the other not for steel. I ran into that when I was looking for chokes for my 835.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

Ominivision1 wrote:
This is a very touchy subject regarding lead vs steel shot. In my 40+ years with upland game (Ducks,Geese,,etc) Lead shot wins out int my opinion.

www.northlandoutdoors....her_ID/10/
yeah well we over here are allowed to use lead if more than 200mtrs from water and guess what??? the guys I know who shot 1300 canada geese last season still use steel Shocked why because they have leart to use it and know thier guns and leads.
bottom line over here and I HAVE THIS DISCUSSION OFTEN. take a spoonful of cement with your coffee and harden the f*%k up. get over it and get on with it. most guys who still bitch and moan about steel will when asked admit they only shoot 2 or at most 3 boxes of sheels a season mostly on opening day. well I tell them buy some heavy shot if you dont like steel it will still be less than your booze bill for the weekend. and that stuff is BETTER than lead.
yes lead is great and it kills really well.
yes the first steel loads we got wee absolutly plurry useless well not completely if you threw the shells they told the dog where the odd dead duck was Very Happy
but once speed got to 1400fps we started to have better kills and since we got 1550fps loads I have no complaints and what wounded ducks??? I reakon I have less now than ever before. I have killed four mallards for 4 shots on 2 ocasions (with a pump FLYING) and take canada geese with steel #2 with no trouble.
we were told to change to steel because lead was poisoning ducks maybe it is maybe not. steel is here to say so let it go I say learn to shoot with it and have some fun out there.
there ends my pet rant.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

Elvis, but how does the game you shot with steel looks like? In my opinion very bloody and when you wait a few hours before you clean it, you already see some green colors...
I still love lead shot and not only because it's forbitten to use here in the Northern part of the country. (in the South they are still allowed to use lead shot when it's coated... and they are at higher grounds, so their water flows to us...)
Just a question: how much game and trees do you think are already poisoned with this steel shot? Steel will rust and the oxides kill, much faster than leadoxide...

And look at the stream: where does lead come from and where does it go? Now we look at the mainstream of the other components of a shotshell... what about all these plastics?
And now think about all this other stuff that's killing nature. Ever seen roedeer with a cola-can on a leg?
So ban also the plastics and this strange stuff we throw away?

What about the healthy department telling us how to pack your steak in the shop?
There was a time that meat wasn't packed in plastic, drinking water came trough lead pipes, even now most herbicides and insecticides are a salt of a metal we don't like to see return to nature... and we survived all that...

Why are we no longer allowed to make our own choise? I don't mind to get a lead pellet in my stomac occasionally, but I don't like my apendicitis blocked by rusting steel pellets...
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:25 am    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

I blamed the dog for ripping a few ducks untill we got a few with dog tooth marks without the dog Embarassed Embarassed
that is pellets grazing across the breast. other than that its ok.
my point with steel is love it or not we have the rules there so I suggest you get used to it and get on with it.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:42 am    Post subject: Re: Full choke's and Steel shot Reply with quote

but sometimes there are higher rules...

it all started with the 10 commandements. Everything they made afterwards is just to have a legal excuse to some not to live by the 10 commandements...
and to give big money to lawyers.

you know the latest? Here in Belgium they had to let a man, who shot his grillfriend 2x in the head, go free because the judge extended his preliminary yailtime with 3 months and legally only 1 month was allowed.

Do you still think they have to make extra laws concerning what I can use to hunt with? Do you really think they are more expert than me in that department?
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