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New ATF Ruling on T/C
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:34 pm    Post subject: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

I have owned an original T/C that I bought new in the 90's and it was chambered for the 30/30 win and also came with an 8" barrel and a 16" barrel along with a rifle stock and was registered as a pistol. For a long time I was told that if I swapped out the barrel and put on the rifle stock I could no longer go back the other way to pistol. Hence the lawsuit T/C bought up against ATF in the early 90's.

Well today I get an e-mail from a buddy asking for clarification on a pdf link he sent me regarding the new rules. After reading it a few times, it appears that now if you put a rifle barrel 16" + with an overall length of 26" + on a T/C registered as a pistol, you can go back an forth between pistol and rifle.

But if you bought it and registered it as a rifle, than you cannot convert it to pistol at all.

Here's the ATF Ruling T/C

Now my question is, is my synopsis right on the ruling?

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

My understanding has been, and still is, that you just can't put a <16" barrel on the T/C frame while using the rifle stock. That would make it a "short-barreled rifle" and fall under NFA restrictions.

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English Mike
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

Ominivision1 wrote:
Thats what I thought Mike, but now I stumbled into this law site and this lawyer says different.

Prince Law Offices

The statement in the link reads to me that you still can't fit a barrel under 16" to the rifle stock without registering it as a SBR.
The whole issue IS damn' silly & shows how stupid legislation can be.


Quote::
a pistol may be converted to a Title I rifle (non-SBR) and back to a pistol without having to register the firearm as a Short-Barreled Rifle under the NFA
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

Thats what I thought Mike, but now I stumbled into this law site and this lawyer says different.

Prince Law Offices

Edit: This post was in reply to Pumkinslinger and went to edit this post to add another reply from a different site and deleted the original post. Mad Mad
hitting the wrong button even thou it asked me "are you sure you want to delete?" Embarassed

I'm going to bed, keep them coming. Smile

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

here in Kiwiland its a little more simple the overall lenght has to exceed 762mm/ 30" ish and thats plurry short.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

The way I read the ATF Ruling T/C OV1, it says that a rifle, manufactured as a rifle to be shoulder fired is not a NFA Firearm. A pistol, manufactured as a pistol and designed to be fired with one hand is not a NFA Firearm.

A firearm, produced, by modification, from a non NFA rifle, that has a barrel length of less than 16 inches or an overall length of less than 26 inches brings that produced, or modified, firearm under the auspices of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4) and as such it becomes a NFA Firearm and must be registered.

A firearm produced, in kit form, as either a pistol (designed to be fired by one hand) or a rifle (designed to be fired from the shoulder) does not fit the definition of a NFA Firearm. Both the T/C rifle and the T/C pistol fall outside of the NFA Definition of a NFA Firearm.

Reading the ATF Definition of a NFA Firearm, the reason I can see for this ruling is that the T/C pistol, or rifle, is not modified to make it one or the other, but is made with the manufacturers designed parts to be one or the other. In other words, a firearm assembled as the manufacturer's design intended, without modification of the manufacturer's kit parts, as produced by the manufacturer.

However, a T/C Receiver fitted with a T/C Rifle Stock and a T/C Pistol Barrel IS a NFA Firearm, likewise a T/C Receiver fitted with a T/C Pistol Grip and T/C Rifle Barrel is also a NFA Firearm and must be registered.

Although the definitions seem pretty cut and dried, I think that they could be open to a certain amount of interpretation and as such could lead to ambiguity, especially in the above scenario. I would be careful not to have both barrels and both stocks with me at the same time. The onus would most likely then be on you to prove you did not intend combining the parts into a NFA defined Firearm.

The operative word I can see in there is "MODIFIED". The T/C Receiver is designed to accept either the T/C Pistol Grip, Rifle Stock, Pistol Barrel or Rifle (Carbine) Barrel. It is interesting that they don't use the term 16 inches OR LESS or 26 inches OR LESS...they say LESS THAN 16 inches or 26 inches.

So, cut you rifle barrel down to be less than an overall length of 26 inches or to a barrel length of less than 16 inches and you have now made a NFA Firearm (Short Barrel Rifle) under their definition and must be registered.

Cheers, Vince

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

As long as you use the rifle stock with barrels longer than 16 inches and pistol stocks with barrels shorter than 16 inches you don't have to do anything other than enjoy the shooting.
You, the end user are assembling the weapon using un-modified factory parts as either a rifle or pistol - you cannot interchange the parts from rifle to pistol or the other way around - that is a modification to the factory assembly and thus must be registered - which then makes the weapon a one-of-a-kind that can no longer be interchanged from pistol to rifle.

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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:23 am    Post subject: Re: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

Way back, T/C won the lawsuit involving T/C rifle/pistol kits. For years the BTAFE has maintained that if you buy a T/C pistol you can convert it into a rifle but cannot subsequently convert it back into a pistol. The above document indicates the BATFE has come to a more sensible conclusion in that apparently now they acknowledge you can legally buy a T/C pistol, convert it into a rifle and then again back into a pistol. Obviously, this would apply to other firearms designed to be used as both rifles and pistols.

By the way, at least from the BATFE's perspective, you can put as long a barrel as you like on a pistol but cannot, without the proper paperwork, have a barrel of less than 16 inches on a rifle.
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fnuser
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

This happens alot in the A.R. world also since there are now A.R. pistols and rifles, sometimes just because it looks cool, I saw a guy with one and said I wasn't anybody (law enforcement) but his pistol upper on a carbine lower could get him in trouble if the wrong or right guy or gal had seen it. He thanked me sheepishly and said it never even crossed his mind he just thought it made a handy little carbine I agreed and moved on.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

Here in Fruit-salad Land- we can't even buy Judge- they consider it a sawed off shotty.

It's barrel is rifled you dipsticks!!!

DON'T GET ME STARTED!
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

Stopped at my local gs and was talking to him about this ruling and he pulled out his book and it had the same papers as the above link to atf's website. He did call the Des Moines atf field office last Friday afternoon for clarification on the ruling, they told him they were still in contact with the main headquarters in Washington and he still has heard nothing back yet. But from what he read, you can interchange barrels from pistol to rifle and back to pistol if when you bought it, it was a pistol registered on the 4473 form as a handgun. If you registered it as a rifle, you cannot put a pistol barrel on it less than 16" unless you pay for a sbr stamp.

He did tell me that he will be heading to Des Moines on Wednesday for business and will stop at the atf office and get clarification. He also told me that this ruling may also open a can of worms with other firearms such as the ar platform. He did say he wouldn't be surprised if atf backpedals on this ruling until its all sorted out.

So hopefuly Thursday I can have some concrete proof about the T/C contender platform.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: New ATF Ruling on T/C Reply with quote

And still they don't understand that whatever ruling they make, there will always be someone who finds tricks to surpass it. And who is the victim of all these ruling?
But that seems the cause with all laws. I used to say that the 10 commandments were clear for everybody. At that time nobody needed a lawyer. Afterwards they made so many laws just to give some basis to lawyers to try and explain the 10 commandments as they please. All these laws just to create a curtain of mist around the 10 commandments...
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