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Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down
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g45_70
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

Howdy Folks;

Seems a little chilly in here, so thought I'd throw a round or two on the fire.
I've owned and used many differant calibres and cases over the years. Some killed quicker that others, some were down right sorry. Some say it's not what your useing it's where you put the bullet has some truth to it. But lets get down and really look at the evadance.
Here's a web site that I copied the following artical from "http://www.eabco.com/Reports/report05.htm"

Sectional Densities and Velocities that Put Game Down - The 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser is famous for being an extremely reliable game stopper. I believe the reason it works so well is a combination of two factors: High Sectional Density and Medium Velocity. Here's a simple illustration of how it works:
If you shoot an aluminum pop can with a high velocity (800fps) air rifle, the pellet zips right through the can without disturbing it. Now, if you shoot that can with a low velocity BB gun at 300-400 fps, it will make a dent, rip a hole through, and knock the can over. Medium velocity actually puts more whack into the target!

After some thinking on the resultes of several deer shot with differant rifles I tend to agree. I've had more bang flops with heavy slow moving bullets than with lite fast "2900-3000+ fps" rounds, that's "point of impact velocitys."
Where I live it's all mostly heavy timber and brush, a long shot is 300 Yds.. Always thinking of the worse case senero, expecting that long range shot, I loaded up a 300 Win. Mag. with Speer 165's at 3100 fps.. I never got that long range shot and everything I did shoot was under 100 Yds. and out of 4-5 deer I never had a bang flop from one of them. Even though the lungs, liver and in some cases the heart were destroyed. Some traveled 100 Yds. Like they diden't know they'd been hit and were just spooked!!

I think that same bullet at 3100fps, would have delivered the needed shock, to drop the animals with in a few feet or yards had they been hit at say 300 Yds., at an impact velocity of 2400fps.
Check out the link above and let me know what you think!.........Gene>>>

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

Thats what my current believe is too.

I shoot mostly short distances, very very rarely further than 100 meters. And usually I shoot at pigs and goats.

Nowadays I use "slow" large diameter calibers such as 300 whisper , 45-70 (loaded to about 1200fps) and 45LC.

But on the other hand, I also shoots with fast calibers such as 223REM and 243Win.

At both instances, I have experienced both the "bang flop" and the "bang run flop" results. I cannot say which is more effective between the two

It is just with the slower cartridges it is a lot less noisy, a lot more kind to my shoulder, a tad more accurate (maybe because I wont flinch) and best of all, COST LESS to load. The bad point is that due to the rainbow trajectory, it is harder to shoot at further than 100 meters distance.

I am happy with what I use.

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Deleted_User_2665
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

Hammer stuff in the engine room and it dies...

Purty simple............................
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

My experiences have been much the same. Those long, heavy-for-caliber bullets coasting along at 2,600 to 2,800 fps penetrate well and just plain seem to drop game. Do they drop game faster than the hyper-velocity crowd? Probably not, but they also don't shoot up as much meat, aren't as easily deflected by bone and can be shot better by more shooters since recoil is generally less. If nothing else, being able to be shot better increases the chances of lethal hits.

Cartridges using traditional loads like the 6.5 Swede and the 45/70 share common traits...long, heavy-for-bore size bullets at moderate velocities that penetrate extremely well without using premium bullets and reputations as efficient game getters. Those long bullets shed velocity much slower than shorter, lighter ones too, making them viable alternatives for extended range shooting if good range estimation is used. Success is hard to argue with.

As to deer running 100 yards or so even with fatal hits; deer don't understand that they are supposed to die when shot. A human being often will die from shock even with non-lethal hits because they know what a gunshot is and their mind talks them into dying. Deer are adrenaline driven and their first reaction to anything strange is flight. Once the adrenaline is flowing they can and will run a considerable distance until blood loss finishes the task. The only way that deer or other game can be dropped in their tracks is from a shot that generates sufficient damage to vital organs or spine to cause immediate and total neurological shut-down.

Whew! Guess that was more like 3 cents worth!

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g45_70
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

Those long, heavy-for-caliber bullets coasting along at 2,600 to 2,800 fps penetrate well and just plain seem to drop game. Do they drop game faster than the hyper-velocity crowd? Probably not.

SingleShotLover;

During the time I was using the .300 Win. Mag., I was teaching a young man how to hunt and where to place his shots. He was useing a .308 Win. loaded with the same 165s I was useing at about 2650fps. In 5 years he had 3 bang flops to my zero, all our critters were shot behind the shoulder. I never lost a deer, I just never got the bang flops he did!?
I've been hunting with a 7mm08 the last 3 years and so far have had 2 instant drops, using the Speer 160s at 2700fps. And the Little 7 only kills on one end of the rifle!! LOL!!! And like you say, minamal meat damage!!
It don't burn a hat full of powder either!!..................Gene.............

_________________
When a well packaged web of lies sold gradually to the masses, over generations, the truth, will seem utterly perposterous, and its speaker a raving lunitic.

Thomas Jefferson:
"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
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g45_70
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

But on the other hand, I also shoots with fast calibers such as 223REM and 243Win.

gelandangan;

I have both of these rounds too, the 223 is in a 24" Bushmaster Varminter and the .243 in a 20" Remington bolt. I've yet to take a deer with the .243, though I have taken it out with that intent, the ocation just hasen't persented itself just yet. It sure raises cane with coyotes, I use the Hornaday 87gr. hollow points. I wonder how that pill would work on a deer?

I had an older Micro-Gruve Marlin 45/70 that I really liked. I used a 405gr. G.C. and Varget powder in it. Don't remember the charge, but it was a sure killer on elk and deer. I got talked out of that rifle on a trade, I do miss that ol girl!! Crying or Very sad But I'll get another! Razz .............Gene...............

_________________
When a well packaged web of lies sold gradually to the masses, over generations, the truth, will seem utterly perposterous, and its speaker a raving lunitic.

Thomas Jefferson:
"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

I think the 270 wsm with 140 or 150 grain bullets is my "baby" for whitetail because it seems to be that middle ground or grey area. It is fast enough and heavy enough. I have killed about 12 deer (from small does to a nice wall hanger 12 pt.) I pride myself on taking good shots and have shot only one of these deer more than once. The gun just drops deer very efficiently.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

g45-70

243 WIN can easily kill Fallow deers. Although I never use it for deer myself, but I saw many others who did.
I would not hesitate to use a 243 for deers.

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The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

I hate the term, "knock down power". As if any bullet can actually knock an animal down. I have noticed there are two shots that go "bacg - flop" more often regardless of the caliber (hunting rifles) in use. Shoulder shots and well placed head and neck shots. Head and neck shots work best with a light for caliber bullet at moderate velocity and the shoulder shots work best with medium to heavy for caliber bullets again at moderate velocities.
I have a brother who can take down a moose at 100 yards with a 6mm x 30 and I can do the same thing with a 30-06 but we aren't hitting the animal in the same place. Shot placement, gun, and bullet design have to work together for clean, humane kills. Just like most other things in life it is most important to know your limits and learn to live within them.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

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Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down
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g45_70
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Howdy Folks;

Seems a little chilly in here, so thought I'd throw a round or two on the fire.
I've owned and used many differant calibres and cases over the years. Some killed quicker that others, some were down right sorry. Some say it's not what your useing it's where you put the bullet has some truth to it. But lets get down and really look at the evadance.
Here's a web site that I copied the following artical from "http://www.eabco.com/Reports/report05.htm"

Sectional Densities and Velocities that Put Game Down - The 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser is famous for being an extremely reliable game stopper. I believe the reason it works so well is a combination of two factors: High Sectional Density and Medium Velocity. Here's a simple illustration of how it works:
If you shoot an aluminum pop can with a high velocity (800fps) air rifle, the pellet zips right through the can without disturbing it. Now, if you shoot that can with a low velocity BB gun at 300-400 fps, it will make a dent, rip a hole through, and knock the can over. Medium velocity actually puts more whack into the target!

After some thinking on the resultes of several deer shot with differant rifles I tend to agree. I've had more bang flops with heavy slow moving bullets than with lite fast "2900-3000+ fps" rounds, that's "point of impact velocitys."
Where I live it's all mostly heavy timber and brush, a long shot is 300 Yds.. Always thinking of the worse case senero, expecting that long range shot, I loaded up a 300 Win. Mag. with Speer 165's at 3100 fps.. I never got that long range shot and everything I did shoot was under 100 Yds. and out of 4-5 deer I never had a bang flop from one of them. Even though the lungs, liver and in some cases the heart were destroyed. Some traveled 100 Yds. Like they diden't know they'd been hit and were just spooked!!

I think that same bullet at 3100fps, would have delivered the needed shock, to drop the animals with in a few feet or yards had they been hit at say 300 Yds., at an impact velocity of 2400fps.
Check out the link above and let me know what you think!.........Gene>>>
_________________
When a well packaged web of lies sold gradually to the masses, over generations, the truth, will seem utterly perposterous, and its speaker a raving lunitic.

Thomas Jefferson:
"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

Back to top

gelandangan
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Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Sydney Australia
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats what my current believe is too.

I shoot mostly short distances, very very rarely further than 100 meters. And usually I shoot at pigs and goats.

Nowadays I use "slow" large diameter calibers such as 300 whisper , 45-70 (loaded to about 1200fps) and 45LC.

But on the other hand, I also shoots with fast calibers such as 223REM and 243Win.

At both instances, I have experienced both the "bang flop" and the "bang run flop" results. I cannot say which is more effective between the two

It is just with the slower cartridges it is a lot less noisy, a lot more kind to my shoulder, a tad more accurate (maybe because I wont flinch) and best of all, COST LESS to load. The bad point is that due to the rainbow trajectory, it is harder to shoot at further than 100 meters distance.

I am happy with what I use.
_________________
I fish therefore I lie ...

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wildswalker
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Posts: 305
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hammer stuff in the engine room and it dies...

Purty simple............................

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SingleShotLover
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Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 21
Location: Illinois
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My experiences have been much the same. Those long, heavy-for-caliber bullets coasting along at 2,600 to 2,800 fps penetrate well and just plain seem to drop game. Do they drop game faster than the hyper-velocity crowd? Probably not, but they also don't shoot up as much meat, aren't as easily deflected by bone and can be shot better by more shooters since recoil is generally less. If nothing else, being able to be shot better increases the chances of lethal hits.

Cartridges using traditional loads like the 6.5 Swede and the 45/70 share common traits...long, heavy-for-bore size bullets at moderate velocities that penetrate extremely well without using premium bullets and reputations as efficient game getters. Those long bullets shed velocity much slower than shorter, lighter ones too, making them viable alternatives for extended range shooting if good range estimation is used. Success is hard to argue with.

As to deer running 100 yards or so even with fatal hits; deer don't understand that they are supposed to die when shot. A human being often will die from shock even with non-lethal hits because they know what a gunshot is and their mind talks them into dying. Deer are adrenaline driven and their first reaction to anything strange is flight. Once the adrenaline is flowing they can and will run a considerable distance until blood loss finishes the task. The only way that deer or other game can be dropped in their tracks is from a shot that generates sufficient damage to vital organs or spine to cause immediate and total neurological shut-down.

Whew! Guess that was more like 3 cents worth!
_________________
SSL

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g45_70
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Joined: Jan 04, 2008
Posts: 9
Location: N.W. Montana
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those long, heavy-for-caliber bullets coasting along at 2,600 to 2,800 fps penetrate well and just plain seem to drop game. Do they drop game faster than the hyper-velocity crowd? Probably not.

SingleShotLover;

During the time I was using the .300 Win. Mag., I was teaching a young man how to hunt and where to place his shots. He was useing a .308 Win. loaded with the same 165s I was useing at about 2650fps. In 5 years he had 3 bang flops to my zero, all our critters were shot behind the shoulder. I never lost a deer, I just never got the bang flops he did!?
I've been hunting with a 7mm08 the last 3 years and so far have had 2 instant drops, using the Speer 160s at 2700fps. And the Little 7 only kills on one end of the rifle!! LOL!!! And like you say, minamal meat damage!!
It don't burn a hat full of powder either!!..................Gene.............
_________________
When a well packaged web of lies sold gradually to the masses, over generations, the truth, will seem utterly perposterous, and its speaker a raving lunitic.

Thomas Jefferson:
"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

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g45_70
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Joined: Jan 04, 2008
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Location: N.W. Montana
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But on the other hand, I also shoots with fast calibers such as 223REM and 243Win.

gelandangan;

I have both of these rounds too, the 223 is in a 24" Bushmaster Varminter and the .243 in a 20" Remington bolt. I've yet to take a deer with the .243, though I have taken it out with that intent, the ocation just hasen't persented itself just yet. It sure raises cane with coyotes, I use the Hornaday 87gr. hollow points. I wonder how that pill would work on a deer?

I had an older Micro-Gruve Marlin 45/70 that I really liked. I used a 405gr. G.C. and Varget powder in it. Don't remember the charge, but it was a sure killer on elk and deer. I got talked out of that rifle on a trade, I do miss that ol girl!! But I'll get another! .............Gene...............
_________________
When a well packaged web of lies sold gradually to the masses, over generations, the truth, will seem utterly perposterous, and its speaker a raving lunitic.

Thomas Jefferson:
"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

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KYGunner
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Posts: 36
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the 270 wsm with 140 or 150 grain bullets is my "baby" for whitetail because it seems to be that middle ground or grey area. It is fast enough and heavy enough. I have killed about 12 deer (from small does to a nice wall hanger 12 pt.) I pride myself on taking good shots and have shot only one of these deer more than once. The gun just drops deer very efficiently.
_________________
KYGunner
"You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence"
-Abe Lincoln

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gelandangan
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Posts: 442
Location: Sydney Australia
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
g45-70

243 WIN can easily kill Fallow deers. Although I never use it for deer myself, but I saw many others who did.
I would not hesitate to use a 243 for deers.
_________________
I fish therefore I lie ...

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PaulS;
I agree, the term knock down power is a farce at best and a deer wounded with a .223 is just as wounded as if hit with an /06, in a bad spot.
I've yet to make a so called "Texas heart shot" and think such a shot ought to be avoided, even at the cost of an empty frying pan. Such a shot can cause alot of meat waste and one heck of a mess for sure!
Good hunting!.....................................................Gene.....................

_________________
When a well packaged web of lies sold gradually to the masses, over generations, the truth, will seem utterly perposterous, and its speaker a raving lunitic.

Thomas Jefferson:
"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
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Grayfox97128
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

When its all said and done the true difference in so called killing power is mostly bullet design. Almost any cartridge can be made to kill quickly with a bullet that starts expanding at impact without blowing up, and expands as it go's all the way through the game. Expansion is not as important with large calibers because simply, they are already expanded in a way before they hit. I have killed deer, elk, coyotes with many different cartridges in the last 40 years and have realized that what particular cartridge I am using is really not very important as long as I have the right bullet in a good handling accurate rifle.


Last edited by Grayfox97128 on Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

Gidday Grayfox.

Welcome to the fire.. grab a log or just sit on Bushy's lap Razz

Whatever cartridge or caliber selected, it must ensure that there is enough energy to send the bullet into the fatal area and create the required damages to kill the animal correctly and quickly.

Expansion of bullets I think is just the way it is designed to transfer the kinetic energy on to the target. The larger the surface area, the easier the energy is transferred.
Energy transferred in to the wound channel shape and size, the breaking of hard or resilient materials (hair, skin, fat, and bone) and shock into the body of the target, which may result in a kill.

Larger bullet diameter will also help us direct the damages onto the right area. Viz. You could theoretically kill a deer with a bicycle spoke provided that you could direct your thrust into the right spot and sever the right nerve or disrupt the right point in the heart or brain. However, this is impossible to be done from a distance further than your arms reach (with me, even its in my arms reach I could not do it). So, a large bullet gives you a higher probability to get to the right area.

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

Do - Not try!


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Grayfox97128
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

Thank You for the welcome,
I wish I had found this site sooner...kinda sad really....
I have been using the Point Blank program for a few years and had never been to this site. (I got it from a friend)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Trajectory, Meat Damage, and Knock-Down Reply with quote

An interesting question? Meat Damage??? I figure if I killed the game quick and got the penetration I thought was right, whatever damage the bullet made was just right. I would rather blow away half the meat that lose a whole animal.
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