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larger bore rifle
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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gelandangan
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Posts: 5760
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:43 pm    Post subject: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

Gday guys.

By now I have a few sporting calibers, small military calibers, Western actions plus a couple of wildcats rifles in the safe.
But I think you understand the philosophy of "there is never enough gun on you gun safe" syndrome.

So, now I have been looking at a larger bore rifle.

I am not particularly impressed with the super duper hyper velocity stuff,
yet I am interested in having a gun that would be sufficient to say,
go hunting buffalo in Cape York or err.. a rhino in Africa (not that I would shoot one)
and they got to be cheap enough to placate the missus and of course since
it would mostly sleep in the safe unused, it got to be justifiable.

Basically, the gun should have easy to find cartridges ( should be stock item for most gunshops),
mild to shoot (I don't want a mule), should have hunting accuracy up to 150 meters away.
And most of all it got to be of a caliber larger than .40.

So far, I have cast my beady little eyes at 45-70 cal H&R Handy for one choice.
I even hunts for a secondhand T/C but there is little of them here in Aussie.
But I am sure, since there plenty of other models to choose from,
but I don't know how good they are or how reliable they are.

Do you guys have any input for this? What caliber? What gun?

Thanks
Gelan

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The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

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roklok
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

Marlin 1895 45-70 hands down. Very practical gun yet usefull for the largest animals on the planet.
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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

Unless you reload, a 45-70 probably isn't generally considered sufficient for Cape Buffalo. Ammunition manufacturers have to keep pressures down to the ranges tolerated by some fairly old guns. If you reload for a strong gun, the 45-70 can be a lot more potent.

Also, none of the common over .40 caliber big bores are super velocity weapons so, if slowish velocity is one of your wants, any of them will do. I got a CZ 550 in 458 Lott which is a lot more economical to buy than a lot of big bores; in fact, the missus bought it for me. I doubt most sporting goods stores commonly stock 458 Lott ammo but you can shoot 458 Win. Mag. ammo in it as well. I find that the cushy recoil pad on the CZ 550 makes prolonged shooting off the bench quite tolerable.

I have no experience with the Handi Rifle but a lot of experience with Encores and Contenders. If I didn't like Encores and Contenders a lot, I wouldn't have had so much experience with them. I think if you polled shooters who had tried both, the Thompson/Center Encore and Contender would easily win over the Handi Rifle if price wasn't a consideration. The Encore can easily handle the higher pressure 45-70 rounds. In fact, the Encore can even handle the 458 Win. Mag. but in such a light gun, the recoil would be pretty brutal.

You can get factory chambered barrels for the Encore in 416 Rigby which is a fine cartridge, has better range than the 45-70 and is suitable even for Elephant. If you went with this cartridge, I would recommend a barrel with a muzzel brake and a durable scope with generous eye relief.
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SwampFox
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

The situation is that you really do not want to get in the bush with a DG species and a single shot rifle. Unless you are trying to make sure the old lady cashes in on your term policy, early on. Wound a buff without a follow up shot and you become a new, instant, mud wallow.

The CZ is just about the best buy for a DG rifle going today. Accurate and robust, it is available in the hard hitting cartridges like the 416 and the 458. A number of PH types say the CZ needs a bit of polishing to make sure the action is smooth, but at the price you can still afford a little polish.

I would point out that you do not have to be over .40 for Buffs, a 357 is OK to use in SA.

I have a 458 Lott in a Montana Action and a 45-70 in a Mauser. For most folks, the 45-70 in the Mauser is a real thumper, it will do the bottom end of the 458 Win Mag and kick the bejezus out of ya in the bargin. Course, the 458 Lott is a business rifle, not made to plink with in the factory loadings, but with cast bullets, it can be loaded to a mild beating.

Were it me, I think I would be looking at the 416 Rigby in the CZ gun. It will do all you want or need. I would only consider the 375 H&H as an alternative, nothing bigger than the 416.
Ed

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1895ss
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

Grumulkin wrote:
Unless you reload, a 45-70 probably isn't generally considered sufficient for Cape Buffalo.

That's not so. You could reload your own or use Garrett ammo or Buffalo Bore ammo and not have a problem at all. The 45-70 has taken a lot of dangerous game with Garrettt ammo. Here's a link for you to search that proves the 45-70 will do just fine on dangerous game.


By the way, I agree with roklok.

www.garrettcartridges....oducts.asp

www.buffalobore.com/hu...efault.htm

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george20042007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

I too am a beleiver of the Marlin 1895 in 45-70. This gun can handle anything you are willing to reload for it. There's a lot of versatility in this package.

Keep it coming...
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Vince
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

I am not familiar with the CZ, but the Marlin is a known quantity as is the Ruger.

I would go for any of them, well the one that fits me and my budget best. As for calibre, I have to agree with those that favour the 45-70. I can't say I've seen 458 Lott or 416 Rigby ammo in any quantity here in Australia, but the 45-70 is readily available. Another calibre that wasn't mentioned is the 444 Marlin...heard pretty good things about it in the past.

Gelan, don't know how big you are, but if you are a little fella then the 45-70 has more than enough power to do you a mischief....I'm talking from experience here. I am 168cm (5'6") tall and weigh about 90kg (198lb) and a full power 350gn bullet from a 45-70 Ruger hurt like buggery, whilst a full power 500gr bullet (well 2 of them actually) left me bruised for a week or more and damn near sat me on my arse, and they were both very accurate cast loads too.

I would be looking for a 45-70 I think, it will satisfy your needs totally and you can load it down for Cowboy matches if you wish.....and its a damn lot of fun too. Laughing

Cheers, Vince

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:04 am    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

Yes, I reckon it would be a bit dangerous to go after DG's witha single shot.
I would not be likely to shoot any DG's, I just couldn't picture myself doing that.

What I was trying to do is to illustrate the gun caliber I want:
Easy to obtain cartridge, plenty of loading options (I do reload Smile ) and
have large enough bore to make it worthwhile if I do ever go after a buff Very Happy

I want a single shot because it made me stop and think before I pull the trigger.
This is good I think... Confused

I was looking at a Sharps 30' 45-120 in the gunshow just past..
it was waaaayyy over my budget
I reckon the gun dealer is still moping my saliva up from that piece Very Happy

@Vince
Mate, I am 178cm with 20kgs more than you.. I guess I am bit of a fatso Very Happy Very Happy

Gelan

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The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

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SwampFox
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:17 am    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

Gelan,
If you want a SS rifle then OK. Just know that it is not the best choice for the potential application of shooting a Buff in Africa.

Of all the single shots in 45-70, the best from the standpoint of cost VS quality is going to be the Ruger, either a #1 or a #3 (same action) but....... They both are real stompers with the #3, being the lightest and most times a one shot deal. You hand the rifle to someine and they take one shot, eyes water, and they give it back. The Ruges can be loaded to the bottom of the 458 Win scale and will do a job with the big bullets. Plus you have the quality for resale.

I do not know about your budget, but if you want to spend the cost of a barrel and already have a H&R frame, then go for it. The H&R may be in the same catagory as the #3 as it is very light. However, the TC, H&R and 95 Marlin are all in the same boat, not capable of handling the top end potential of the 45-70 as found in the Ruger or Mauser.

Of course, if you can find a Siamese Mauser and a good gunsmith, you can have a real DG, M-98 bolt gun, in 45-70. This is my Mauser. In case you wonder about top end, my favorite load is 64 grains of R#7 and the 300 Remington for 2,600 fps.
Ed



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Handloader
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Joined: Aug 22, 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

+1 for the 45-70 given your intents and budget considerations.

+1 for SwampFox's Siamese Mauser. These were plentiful and inexpensive at one time and still can be found. It could be an ideal project rifle. SwampFoxs' is outstanding! Mine is nice, but, nearly original and I paid $175 for it.

+1 for single shots, even on dangeous game. With practice, quick and accurate follow up shots are not problematic. The Ruger No1 is a top choice in 45-70 and gives all the options for loading from mild to wild. I used a Ruger No1S in 338 WM to take a nice brown bear; if you hunt DG you will always have a backup shooter/guide ready to compensate for any errors. In my case, I shot twice at the brown, once from 100yds, once from 80yds with no concern. I will not hesitate to use it again on a forthcoming mountain griz hunt.
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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

Hi Swampfox.
Your rifle a real beauty Smile very much so functional Smile

The problem is in Aussie, due to the small market and really thick bureaucratic red tape, caliber conversion is quite expensive.
It definitely will work out cheaper if I buy a H&R.

*Sigh*
I wish...

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

Do - Not try!


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Steve Jones
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

gelandangan wrote:
Hi Swampfox.
Your rifle a real beauty ) very much so functional )

The problem is in Aussie, due to the small market and really thick bureaucratic red tape, caliber conversion is quite expensive.
It definitely will work out cheaper if I buy a H&R.

*Sigh*
I wish...
Yo gelandangan

Mate I am also sydney based and I recently went through your delema of which big bore.
I have regularly shot a 45/70 and thought about a marlin with 26inch barrel 12 shot capacity, I ended up buying a Mauser 98 9.3 x 62mm (.366, up to 320 gr woodleigh, Highland make a 286 which is available in 50% of gun shops) which can handle and is the minumum capacity for big game in africa. I have yet to scope it but I can hit a dinner plate size target at 200 yd, recoil is similiar to my mates 300Win mag. Tikka, Sako and CZ all chamber new guns in this round and if you plane I shooting donkeys, horses scrub cattle and pigs then I cant think of a better gun
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Steve Jones
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

gelandangan wrote:
Hi Swampfox.
Your rifle a real beauty ) very much so functional )

The problem is in Aussie, due to the small market and really thick bureaucratic red tape, caliber conversion is quite expensive.
It definitely will work out cheaper if I buy a H&R.

*Sigh*
I wish...
Yo gelandangan

Mate I am also sydney based and I recently went through your delema of which big bore.
I have regularly shot a 45/70 and thought about a marlin with 26inch barrel 12 shot capacity, I ended up buying a Mauser 98 9.3 x 62mm (.366, up to 320 gr woodleigh, Highland make a 286 which is available in 50% of gun shops) which can handle and is the minumum capacity for big game in africa. I have yet to scope it but I can hit a dinner plate size target at 200 yd, recoil is similiar to my mates 300Win mag. Tikka, Sako and CZ all chamber new guns in this round and if you plane I shooting donkeys, horses scrub cattle and pigs then I cant think of a better gun
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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

Hiya Steve, welcome to HuntingNut Smile

Thanks for your input mate, will take it in considerations.

Where about do you shoot in Sydney mate? I went sometimes to Malabar range.
You will see me with an Ironing Board Very Happy there.

Gelan

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

Do - Not try!


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Arizona Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: larger bore rifle Reply with quote

That Marlin 1895 in 45-70 gets my vote, too (unless like Handloader says you can find a Siamese Mauser). At least this problem, although hard, is a pleasure to wrestle with.
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