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9MM versas 40MM
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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Tremblay
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:15 am    Post subject: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

My choice

www.tactical-life.com/...se-9mm-40/

www.tactical-life.com/...-9mm-ammo/

looserounds.com/2014/0...-division/

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

The data, as listed in the report is accurate. I can't find any fault with the reasons or data that the FBI provides. The simple fact is that technology applies equally to all projectiles in all calibers. I will state that the permanent cavity made by a 45 caliber or 40 caliber bullet with the right bullet has to be larger than the 9mm simply because the bullets are larger and made to expand to a similar percentage of caliber.
It could be extended from the FBI report that the 38 Special +P bullets at the same (near faster or slower) velocity as the 9mm of the same weight is only limited by the capacity in the gun.
That also seems to be the only "advantage" that the 9mm has over any other gun. Yet there are 40 S&W guns that carry the same 15 rounds that 9mm guns carry. In that case the 40 caliber would be the better choice except for the additional recoil.
I agree with everything they say. That is why I bought a 9mm for three gun. I also bought a heavy (if not the heaviest) gun I could find. Limiting the recoil allows me to get follow up shots and acquire the next target faster than I could with more recoil. Three gun is a timed event and requires a certain number of shots be fired. Self defense only requires one shot without a time limit. Police fire from cover or protection and should be able to hit a perp in the head at reasonable ranges. ("should" is the correct word there. Most of the LEO that I have shot with can't hit a six inch bull consistently at 25 yards. That is OK because they are not supposed to need to shoot at all. Many officers go through their entire careers never shooting anything but paper targets on qualification days. I don't believe there is any excuse for a LEO to miss 80% of the time. Civilians hit above 60% of the time and they don't have the training that the cop does. (normally)
If a cop needs more rounds why not issue 45 Thompson carbines? You can have 100 rounds per drum and even a little girl can handle the recoil in semi-auto.
The premise is that cops need more rounds to get the job done but what happens to the by-standers when the bullets miss their target? Would it not be more prudent to teach the LEOs to shoot better?
I wouldn't think of carrying my 9mm as a defense weapon. My 357 is just as accurate and if I am off my target by an inch it will still cause enough damage to stop the bad guy. If it doesn't the second shot goes through his head anyway. (I am actually training to do head shots first now.)
Anyway, if you can handle the recoil of a 9mm or a 380 but not the recoil of a larger caliber then use the gun you can shoot well, fast. Caliber, velocity, bullet expansion, and the name means nothing if you can't place the bullet where it needs to go.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

I have three handguns that I carry. Firestar M43 9x19, S&W Mod 19 .357 Mag 2 1/2" and Kimber UCC II .45 ACP. 95% of the time I'll have the .45 ACP on me. I load 124 gr, 140 gr and 185 gr XTP/HP in the same order.

I do carry a "boot gun" on occasion. A FIE .25 ACP. Also loaded with Fiocchi 35 gr XTP/HP.

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Tremblay
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

I have two hand guns thet I carry off and on ----Star 9MM AND A Taurus
M-85=p

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

Seems like this is as we've discussed before; there are no magic guns/cartridges/bullets. The folks who picked the 9mm like it because it is cheaper, has less recoil, has more capacity in the same frame, and is "as good" with quality bullets. All valid reasons.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:32 am    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

Yep! there are no magic guns, cartridges or bullets. There are good shooters who would be just as well served with a 22LR as they would with a 45.
My two carry guns are my 357 and my 45 colt. My "boot gun" is a 45/410 derringer with 410 slugs. It is about on par with a 45 colt from a 7 inch barrel. (not loaded hot but a stand by at about 850 fps.)

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

Don't you just love "caliber wars"?

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

I sold my 9 for a 40sw, wouldnt go back if it were offered me for free.


-DallanC
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Tremblay
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

It's not the caliber but the shot placement as I see it....

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

Agree ......shot placement is the deciding factor !!!
I'm yet to find any evidence that shows one size bullet is better than another.

As for caliber. ... pick one and learn how to shoot it. The 40 tends to get a bad rap by those who are lazy and/or lack proper technique. Yes they have more recoil. Learn how to deal with it and it can be shot just as effectively as a 9.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

A 10 pound bowling ball at 800 fps will stop any man but a BB at any speed won't do much unless it interrupts the central nervous system.

It is not about the energy, the caliber or even the velocity (as long as it will penetrate to the vitals) but shot placement counts big time. A 22LR will kill effectively (quickly) if it is properly placed but a .700 maxi-magnum at 4000 fps will not kill if you can't hit the target.

I think we can all agree that bullet placement must come first. From there the caliber you choose is only limited by the number of bad guys and your ability to get back on target for follow up shots.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

..........I'll stay with my .45 ACP..............O K?

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:51 am    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
Yep! there are no magic guns, cartridges or bullets. There are good shooters who would be just as well served with a 22LR as they would with a 45.
My two carry guns are my 357 and my 45 colt. My "boot gun" is a 45/410 derringer with 410 slugs. It is about on par with a 45 colt from a 7 inch barrel. (not loaded hot but a stand by at about 850 fps.)
Paul have you tried it with #00 buckshot???????? or #0 buck
piece of cake to make some up and they patterned ok for me. 3-5 holes got to be better than 1

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:59 am    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

The problem is with a 3" barrel and a 410 the accuracy suffers with anything other than a slug. The slug is more accurate than 45 with any bullet weight and the velocity of standard factory 45 Colt is around 600 fps. I can almost keep a five shot group of 45 Colt in a 10" bull at 25 yards. The slugs are traveling at just under 900 fps and produce groups that are right at 3 inches. The slug will have better penetration than the buck shot and pattern a lot better. My brother and I got these guns at the same time and we tried everything to get them to be lethal at twenty-five yards. Slugs are the only thing that works. The entire gun is investment castings and I know it will not take hotter loads than the factory 45 colt. The 410 slug loads are well within the pressure limits and by far the most accurate for us.
My brother has some brass 410 shells that I might try with 45 caliber bullets. With a 2-1/2" inch case I ought to be able to get more velocity without going over pressure and it would eliminate the long jump to the rifling. It would be ideal to get 800 fps with a 250 grain bullet that was at least as accurate as the slugs are. The 250 grain bullet weighs more than the slug does (about 1-1/2 times) as the slug is at or near 100 grains. The slug is still around the same diameter as the 45 bullets as it will expand to fit the bore. It is just very light so it needs all the velocity it can get from that three inch barrel. It is a neck gun - stick it against the bad guys neck and pull the trigger.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: 9MM versas 40MM Reply with quote

Pauls, do you load a 45 caliber bullet in a .410? What kind of bullet-diameter? I'm hesitating to try a .45 LC round in a .410 gun because I fear that the choke could cause problems...

And for your brother: try to mix shot. Big balls perform better when surrounded by small balls... (or have the gaps between these balls filled with cream wheat or simular)
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