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NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements
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Vince
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

Dimitri wrote:
Vince wrote:
I understand your feelings about a person's rights etc, but there are times when those rights take a back seat to the needs of society. This does not mean that their rights are taken away...that will never happen.

But who gets to say what is best for society? Especially since this is clearly related to the gun running into Mexico, of which the BATF has quite a bad record with already, knowingly allowing guns to enter Mexico.
Dimitri

I agree that the BATF has many many questions to answer and there is no doubt in my mind that they have crossed "the line" on more than one occasion. Having said that, they still need to maintain the "need to know". In this case whoever the Govt decides to conduct the investigation becomes a part of the "need to know" loop. It will not always be in the best interests of society for all of the details to become openly known.

Dimitri wrote:
Police here need detail warrants on the matter at hand to collect information on internet use for one example. And these warrants must be named to who the are investigating, and the reasons. Sure the ISP might be the only one to see that specific warrant, but the fact remains they still need a warrant.


Agree wholeheartedly...but again, this is all part of the investigation, and the investigating that has taken place prior to the issue of the warrant is not included on that Warrant...(in my part of Australia) the only place the justification for the Warrant is recorded is on the actual Application for the Warrant which remains confidential. It is the justification or grounds that the Police put in the Application for a Search Warrant that allows the authorising authority to make a decision on whether or not the Warrant can be Authorised. The Application for a Search Warrant, and the methodology and grounds it contains, remain confidential. I have proven this in Court personally.

Dimitri wrote:
Just as in the USA, for them to collect information not mentioned in any law, they need to serve each and every store a warrant, with a name of the purchaser and with the reason to search. Otherwise the rights of both the store to keep their customers information private, and the rights of the purchasers to expect their information to be kept private becomes violated.

Agree totally mate. However, as in the previous scenario, the Warrant only contains the information/items for which the Police are searching. No "methodology" or information from the investigation is included on the Warrant, only the Powers of the Police.

Dimitri wrote:
Letting people, especially governments and police forces bypass the check's and balances already in place is a very slippery slope. Irregardless if its the "best for society".

Agree totally again mate. However, the Police or Govt do not need to inform the public on the progress or content of an investigation, or even that an investigation is actually being conducted. They just need to ensure that they "tick all the boxes" and apply the "checks and balances" so that if questioned by a superior authorised authority (this could even be a citizen requesting information through Freedom of Information Legislation or someone taking legal action through the Courts in relation to the investigation) they can show that they have conducted the investigation in accordance with the Laws of the Country and that no-ones rights have been violated.

And make no bones about it mate...a Search Warrant allows Police to disrupt a person's life and go through their most private belongings in order to search for evidence of a crime...this power is not taken lightly by those who have the authority to authorise a Search Warrant, hence the need for a "need to know" loop and the inclusion of sufficient information in an Application for a Search Warrant to justify its Authorisation.

Cheers, Vince

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

Dimitri a local gun shop is selling large quantities of sks rifles and ammo to some customers who pay with big rolls of cash the guys ride in on harleys waering gang patches. question do you think some one should ask the question WTF is going on and investigate? or do you believe that that would be too intruding on peoples rights?
sound too far fetched. I used to work for a fella who has gang conections (they even used to dept collect for him) who now has a large gun selling franchise. this guy has no scruples and would happily rip off your granny if there was a $ in it.

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

Then that local gun shop should be investigated for it Elvis, but at the same time, if the gun shop owner is selling everything "by the book". It doesn't matter what tats, patches or vehicles the people drive.

Even if they are suspected of being involved in Criminal Activity, till the police find cause to charge them, and do, they most likely have the right to buy what ever firearms they wish. I know in Canada with all our gun laws, till your actually charged and convicted for a crime, there is no law preventing you from buying guns.

Suspicion of criminal activity, and being convicted of it are 2 very different things.

Dimitri

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

we have a law here that requires you to report people buying items with large amounts of cash (to help stamp out laundering)
for the police to find cause to charge them they would have to investigate.
its a issue that could go round n round till we are all dizzy and fall over. lol

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

we have a law here that requires you to report people buying items with large amounts of cash (to help stamp out laundering)
for the police to find cause to charge them they would have to investigate.
its a issue that could go round n round till we are all dizzy and fall over. lol

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

So, say my daughter gets interested in shooting the local "tactical match". Not having the appropriate guns I head over to the local gun shop and buy two rifles and two handguns. The gun shop owner is required to report this to the ATF. Then the ATF investigates me to discover that I bought the guns to shoot a match. Wasted time, effort and money for the gun shop owner and the ATF, not to mention a possible hassle for me. Now repeat thousands of times a year...

Having heard far too many stories of ATF abuses over the years I sure am NOT interested in giving them excuses for any more.

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inthedark
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
So, say my daughter gets interested in shooting the local "tactical match". Not having the appropriate guns I head over to the local gun shop and buy two rifles and two handguns. The gun shop owner is required to report this to the ATF. Then the ATF investigates me to discover that I bought the guns to shoot a match. Wasted time, effort and money for the gun shop owner and the ATF, not to mention a possible hassle for me. Now repeat thousands of times a year...

Having heard far too many stories of ATF abuses over the years I sure am NOT interested in giving them excuses for any more.

First for VINCE "BZ" .

Production orders are used in both USA, Canada,UK, and Australia/NZ (call it a different name but is for the same purpose ).

There is always going to be improper proceedure by officers that is either deliberate or undeliberate. Either way they are usually called on it by supervisors or the court or by citizens making complaints. 99% of complaints against officers is unfounded, but everyone knows about the 1%. Officers that don't follow the rules are usually fired as police departments can not afford the "bringing the carriage of justice into disrepute" and the lawsuits that follow.
In this case with NSSF vs BATF, I am in total agreement with the lawsuit.

(READ- I FINALLY WENT TO THE HOTLINK TO READ THE LAWSUIT AND THE FOLLOW UP. I SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT FIRST)
That being said, every point that I made was correct.

Dimitri - do yourself a favour and buy a book called "The Police Manual of Arrest, Seizure & Interrogation" by Roger E. Salhany ISBN 0-459-55507-3 and educate yourself, THEN you can ask a question from the point of some knowledge and not ignorance. If this sounds harsh, it was ment to be, because you need to be told.

The fact is, that most people never know that they may be the subject of an investigation unless there is criminal activity for which they may be charged. And for the number of investigations that are ongoing at any one time is staggering.
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Vince
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

I received this today from a mate in the USA.


Fierce Battle Over Gun Rights

Obama Justice Department Orders Gun Registration:
Wayne LaPierre Denounced Action and Unveils NRA Lawsuit ...


Watch here, Watch Now!

Fierce Battle Over Gun Rights

Cheers, Vince

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Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
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