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Reduced Rifle Loads
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

Suzanne wrote:
What would you call it if you have an antique that you want to be careful of and still shoot but with less than full power?

Legendary or Classic! Hodgdon has 3 levels of loads for the 45-70. I studied the Trapdoor (lowest pressure) tables and found Varget had less pressure than Black Powder. Unfortunately, the Varget would leave unburnt sticks/grains in the barrel. I then moved the H4895 which was the second best and still better than BP. I'm getting 1450 fps with a 405gr slug with 41 grains. H4895 is the powder you can use 60% of max case capacity so its easy to step down and stay low pressure with similar performance to legacy.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

H4895= AR 2206h
magnum primer recomended in about 50% of load data...I personally would be wary reducing load too much...some thing about secondary explosion ringing alarm bells in back of old noggin......

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

Elvis, the 60% H4895 is a published as safe by Hodgdon but only for loads that already have H4895 load data.

www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Ho...20load.pdf

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
H4895= AR 2206h
magnum primer recomended in about 50% of load data...I personally would be wary reducing load too much...some thing about secondary explosion ringing alarm bells in back of old noggin......

Elvis,
Is the AR 2206h powder the same powder or is it just a comparable burn rate?
I know the H4895 is an extreme powder (not sensitive to high temps) and that it is a single base but I don't have access to much of the ADI powder information.

The equivalency chart shows AR 2206h equal to both H4895 and IMR 4895 and they are far from the same powders even though the burn rates are similar.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

Gidday Paul...H4895 is AR2206H. ADI Thales make the powder here in Australia and it is, and has been for many years, labelled and marketed as AR2206H. When Hodgdon (and IMR) started buying powder from ADI, it was relabelled according to their nomenclature.

Here’s a list of ADI to Hodgdon Powder equivalents:

AS30N=Clays
AP50N = (No Hodgdon)
AS50N = International
AP70N = Universal
AP100 = (No Hodgdon)
AR2205 = H4227
AR2207 = H4198
AR2219 = H322
Bench Mark1 = (No Hodgdon)
Bench Mark2 = BenchMark AR2206 = (No Hodgdon)
AR2206H = H4895
AR2208 = Varget
AR2209 = H4350
AR2213 = (Discontinued)
AR2213SC = H4831
AR2217 = H1000
AR2225 = Retumbo
AR2218 = H50BMG

This is courtesy of:

Accurate Shooter Daily Bulletin

I am not entirely convinced that this list is complete as I believe Benchmark2 is available as BM2 in the USA...but don't quote me on that.

ADI has another powder that I am using regularly now called Benchmark 8208. From what I have been able to find, this powder IS NOT 8208 XBR.

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

www.hodgdon.com/msds.html

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

Well, Thank you for the list.
I will add it to the list I have of powders that are the same but retail by different names.

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Paul
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tikkat3
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

Off thread, who makes CFE223?
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

It's a Hodgdon powder..... It's probably made by ADI !!!

Hodgdon link CFE223

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:45 am    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

CFE works. I cleaned my rifle the other day and didn't have any copper fouling. Hmmm ... then I remembered I had been shooting with CFE.

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Azar
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

Actually Chambered, a lot of the newly released Hodgdon powders are not made by ADI due to availability issues (or so I've heard). CFE 223 (and I believe CFE Pistol) are made by General Dynamics in St. Marks, Florida.
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

Once again I've made the mistake of forgetting ball and spherical powder is one and the same !!! Embarassed Mad Thus the assumption it was made by ADI.

Azar is correct..... CFE223 is made by St. Marks Powder in Crawfordville Florida who is owned by General Dynamics.

It's not a availability issue though..... St. Marks makes ball powders, ADI makes Extruded powders.

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Azar
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

Oops. Got the names mixed up a bit. Thanks for the clarification.

With regards to availability of ADI powders, this was cited as one of the reasons Hodgdon introduced the new IMR powders out of Canada. These powders are similiar to existing IMR powders but have a decoppering agent and are formulated to be "temperature stable" much like the ADI "extreme" powders are touted to be.

IMR 4166 ~ IMR 4064 + temp. stability + decoppering agent
IMR 4451 ~ IMR 4350 + temp. stability + decoppering agent
IMR 7977 ~ IMR 7828 + temp. stability + decoppering agent

Certainly not the only reason and perhaps not even the primary reason, but one reason that was claimed was due to some difficulty in getting the roughtly equivalent ADI powders in the desired quantity and in a timely manner.

Although the new IMR powders also have the added bonus of a decoppering agent which I believe are lacking in a lot of the ADI powders Hodgdon imports.

Perhaps availability was not cited as one of the reasons for the CFE line, but I have heard it about the IMR powders (and not from my neighbor Bob's cousin's mailman but someone within the firearms industry). Smile
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Reduced Rifle Loads Reply with quote

Omnivision,
The MSDS listing at Hodgdon does not mean the powders are the same.
They list IMR4227 and H4227 and AR2205 as similar powders because the use the same MSDS information but as you know IMR4227 and H4227 are not the same powders. They do have similar burn rates but the pressure curves are completely different and cannot be used interchangably.

I am making a completely accurate list of Identical powders that can use data interchangably and have found reliable data on only 19.
There are four made under the winchester name and the rest are ADI powder equivalents.

I have found that powder burn rate charts are not the answer either so I have to get information from the manufacturers. They are not always willing to supply answers to interchangeable powders.

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Paul
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Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
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