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Help, Problems with new reloading equipment
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

Ominivision1 wrote:
you can send two or three of the bullets to RCBS and have them make a custom bullet seating stem just for that bullet. The last I checked it cost about $20 to $30 which included the new stem.

OV1, thanks. I confirmed that is what RCBS will do. It happens often enough that its in their FAQ. Looks like I either hone it myself or order a custom stem.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
Check the diameter of the expander button too.

Pkinslinger, I did this and found it interesting and presents me with another aspect of reloading with dies that I need to understand.

My Lee hand-loader dies did not have an expander button. They only resized the neck down. The new dies for the press size the neck down further than expand it back out, actually working the brass twice. I saw where you can get dies that only neck down but boy are they pricey. Anyway, here are some numbers of the various outside diameter of a .223 Lapua case necks.

0.249" - New Brass
0.254" - Fired Brass
0.240" - Sized Neck diameter w/o button (Redding)
0.249" - Sized Neck w/ button (Redding)
0.244" - Sized Lee hand-loader die diameter

Now I know why you guys argue about having crimps or not. I don't crimp but my Lee hand-loader die sizes the neck 0.005" smaller. Note the RCBS die results were 0.001" less than the Redding.

So here is my next question. What would be the issue with just reloading a sized case w/o the button, e.g., 0.240" vs 0.249" (with a crimp). Its only 0.004" smaller than my Lee Hand-loader (0.244"). I actually loaded several boat-tail bullets and they went in smoothly. I used an impact bullet puller and the bullets came out similar to how the bullets come out after using my Lee Hand-loader. I figure you are just using the bullet instead of the button to resize the brass and leave the bullet in place. Anyway, I loaded 3 rounds and may try firing them to see what difference I will see in accuracy and velocity. Any predictions or comments?

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:
I think the first thing you need to determine is what the actual cause is !!! ... I'm leaning towards the fact the bullet design it self is causing issue since you have the same problem with two different die sets.

chambered, here is the blow-up of the bullet in question (biggest .223 bullet I've ever seen). The marks on the ogive furthest from the tip are from the Redding die. The markings closer to the tip are from RCBS dies. The band caused by the Redding is broader but you can still see the lack of a smooth surface that could have been clinging to the projectile during extraction. Look closely at the marking from the RCBS dies and you will see a ridge dug into the bullet and I suspect caused the mechanical lock that was broken after I took the dies apart. I reloaded 10 shells with the Redding die just to get the powder contained in the case. Their COALs varied. IMO, both dies need honing or custom seating stems. I did load one 77gr SMK but did not measure length, just wanted to see how easy it would be to insert a bullet into the undersized case neck and then pull it (no problem).



.224 barnes 62gr ttsx with seating stem marks.jpg
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.224 barnes 62gr ttsx with seating stem marks.jpg


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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
So here is my next question. What would be the issue with just reloading a sized case w/o the button,

I have a few Redding Type S FL bushing dies and they all came with both the expander buttons, and decap pin retainer, I do not use the expander button with any of my bushing dies.

Bushing dies are meant to be used without an expander button, although you could if you want use the expander button. The idea is to select the appropriate bushing diameter so that the finished resized neck is the correct size without using an expander button.

Bushing dies resizing uniformity is best when all of the cases have the same neck thicknesses. You may need different bushings for cases from different manufacturers or maybe even different lots.

I guess you could get a compromise and use a bushing that is a little larger than standard full length die neck and let the expander button touch up the inside diameter of the case mouth.

Bushing dies can get expensive if you end up buying several bushings like I did. Very Happy

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

Definitely looks like a compatibility issue to me !!!
Evidently this issue is more common than it should be...... Mr. Google says so.

I feel it's a bunch of BS that die companies would charge their customers extra to get a seating stem that actually works.
Evidently this isn't a new issue and obviously "sleek" bullets have been around for a while now.

Redding should be ashamed of themselves for charging what they charge to begin with then want more to make it work for certain applications.
I've been on the phone with these folks 6 or 7 times over the years for various reasons, this is just one more reason why I'll probably not purchase from them anymore.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

As for your neck sizing dilemma ........ I have used bushing dies and feel they are some what a gimmick for the type of reloading I do !!!

I use the expander button with mine because I can feel an obvious difference when seating the bullet. Without the button some bullets go in easier than others, with the button all have the same feel as they're being seated.

If you were to load some flat base bullets you'd understand the need to size the ID of the neck correctly.

It's a common practice for target shooters to purposely under size the neck to get a press fit with the bullet.

Some only neck size 1/2 the neck with vary little tension.

It's all about experimenting and finding what works for you !!!

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:
I feel it's a bunch of BS that die companies would charge their customers extra to get a seating stem that actually works.

I couldn't agree more, last year I ordered some Speer tnt 6.5mm bullets and also at the same time I ordered RCBS dies for that cal. Short time later I get the order in and start cranking away on my yote exterminators or so I thought.

First bullet I seated crushed the nose and completely closed the HP, loosened everything up and readjusted the die and tried again with the same results. Taking the die apart I could see there was no way this die would work with these bullets. Mad Mad

Called up RCBS and talked to the guy and he said he could send me the correct seater die for that bullet for around $40.00

I told him to stuff it as it was a bunch of BS that I would have to pay for something I specifically requested on my original order.

There is a happy ending thou, 3 days later there was a package in the mailbox with 1 correct seater die. Very Happy

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:
It's all about experimenting and finding what works for you !!!

Looks like I'm starting over again with this new set-up. Thanks for the feedback OV1 and chambered.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

I'd still measure the diameter of the expander buttons. The ID of the neck is primarily what determines your neck tension and using the expander eliminates problems in that area caused by different neck thicknesses. I really don't think that measuring the OD is telling you much unless you measure the neck thickness too and then do the math to get the ID of the neck.

I'm guessing you're compressing the powder when you seat the bullet?

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

An easy way to make the seater fit the bullet is to use some hot glue in the seater and wax on the bullet. Then drill a hole in the nose of the bullet seater to clear the point.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
I'm guessing you're compressing the powder when you seat the bullet?

Yes, the load was slightly compressed. I did mic the buttons and matches the 0.001" difference in case neck.

0.2225" Redding
0.2215" RCBS

I look into the seating stem. They are not very smooth. You can see deposits of copper in the rough areas of the Redding stem. Looks like whatever one I pick I will have to polish (finish the manufacturing job).

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inthedark
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
An easy way to make the seater fit the bullet is to use some hot glue in the seater and wax on the bullet. Then drill a hole in the nose of the bullet seater to clear the point.
OK Paul, would you use a hard hot glue or just the run of the mill type of hot glue stick?
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
I'd still measure the diameter of the expander buttons. The ID of the neck is primarily what determines your neck tension and using the expander eliminates problems in that area caused by different neck thicknesses. I really don't think that measuring the OD is telling you much unless you measure the neck thickness too and then do the math to get the ID of the neck.

The concept of using a neck bushing without an expander button was based upon cutting necks to a uniformed thickness !!!

If your were to uniform your necks and shoot them in a typical factory chamber chances are you'll be splitting necks in short time.

Measuring the OD (neck) of a loaded cartridge determines what size bushing to use.

Because bushing dies don't resize/shrink the neck as much, the expander button pulls through a lot easier than a standard die.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

Well, nothing is easy. I waited all day for the UPS truck to come and bring me my RCBS competition dies with the mirometer bullet seating adjustment. Was excited to get them. When I opened the box, the die box had cracked open and the dies were helter-skelter. The micrometer markings were all banged up and the depriming rod was not in the center. Not sure if its bent or out of alignment. I will have to compare to the other dies. Wish this was easier. Now I have bunches to return.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Help, Problems with new reloading equipment Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
Well, nothing is easy. I waited all day for the UPS truck to come and bring me my RCBS competition dies with the mirometer bullet seating adjustment. Was excited to get them. When I opened the box, the die box had cracked open and the dies were helter-skelter. The micrometer markings were all banged up and the depriming rod was not in the center. Not sure if its bent or out of alignment. I will have to compare to the other dies. Wish this was easier. Now I have bunches to return.

That sucks !! Hang in there it will get better Smile

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