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How-m-I-doin? (target photos)
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Gil Martin
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

Suzanne,
H4895 powder is a close match for IMR4895 and I use that when I cannot get the IMR powders.

Schnecksville is named for the Schneck family who were anti-social hog farmers. All the best...
Gil

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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

Suzanne wrote:
Hey Roklok !! I should be shooting low at 50yds for a 100yd zero?
Suz

Thats nice shootin Very Happy . Roklok is correct though a 100 yard zero will be slightly low at 50 yards.

Joe

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roklok
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

Suzanne, gravity does start pulling the bullet down the instant it leaves the muzzle. However with a scoped rifle your line of sight is probably 1.5 inches above centerline of bore if not more. This means that to be hitting a couple inches high at 50 yards your centerline of bore is pointing up at an angle which intersects with your line of sight at probably about 25 yards. Here is an example. If your line of sight (center of scope tube) is 2 inches above centerline of bore, and your point of impact is 2 inches high at 50 yards, that means that the bullet has risen 4 inches in relation to your line of sight in 50 yards (it started out 2 inches below, ended up two inches above). It has NOT risen in relation to centerline of bore. Taking gravity out of the equation, this would put the bullet at 6 inches above line of sight at 100 yards (4 inch rise per 50 yards). Of course, gravity does have some effect, but not enough in a high velocity cartridge to pull a bullet down 6 inches between 50 and 100 yards. Spend some time playing around with the point-blank program on this site, and better yet, do some shooting at 100 yards and I think this concept will be easy to grasp.

With an iron sighted rifle chambered for a low velocity cartridge (.22 LR for example) , with the sights only half an inch above centerline of bore, your assumption that a couple inches high at 50 yards would mean a 100 yard zero would be pretty close to being correct.
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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

Roklok my appo-loagies but I have yet to shoot at 100yds and I'm going by the point-blank program and one called "Shoot" which tells me to set my sights at 1.9 inches high at 50yds for a 140yd zero, and that's what I've been doin with all my rifles. I think both these programs take into account the height of the scope too. HHHhhhhhhmmmmmm gonna have to try 100yds...I've read your explanation over and over and it makes sense....so at 100yds if I leave everything (the scope settings) alone I'll actually have to aim below the bulls eye about 4 inches and the additional 1.9"x2 ? or 7.8inches. This should be interesting. So why does the program I'm using take into account the scope height? Ok I'm gettin mad now.....so is there a way to sight-in at 50yds for a 100yds zero? Yes, zero it at 50yds, then at 100yds add scope height? Or, or, or, at 50yds subtract scope height, shoot below (the amount that was indicated by the program, 1.9") the target (as you said before)ok ok ok I was reading the program wrong to begin with. When it says shoot 1.9 inches high, it means aim low (1.9 inches) till the bullet hits 1.9inches below the cross-hairs. I've been aiming with the cross-hairs on the target getting the bullet to hit 1.9 inches above the aiming point. Christ now I'm confused again.........Vince!!! Where the Hell is that beer!!?? (panties in a bunch......eyes watering..world is spinning backwards....feet itch....TV sux...) So how's Alaska these days? My elderly folks are goin on a cruise up there....leaving this week actually. Now I have to sight-in all over again.....gotta shoot at 100yds.....gotta build more ammo. Ok so tell me where to aim at 50yds to get a 100yd zero or I'm gonna start sharpening my teeth again, chase you around the room, till I scare it outa you. Too confusing for me.... long days at work on little tedious things...can't think anymore. Sorry for the fit. I'll quiet down. Please phrase your instruction as to where the cross-hairs should be aimed in relation to where the bullet should be placed. I've been aiming cross-hairs at the bulls-eye and adjusting the scope so that my point of impact is higher than my point of aim. And man I will reward YOU!
Suz

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Last edited by Suzanne on Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

Gil M. yer funny. the Schneck family who were anti-social hog farmers. Probably all hog farmers are anti-social.....I had a neighbor hog farmer once though who, whenever he was talking to you, he would run his hand up his t-shirt and sort of feel around and show his fat belly and I never knew him to be anti-social but always wanted him to be.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:40 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

Suzanne. Just put up a 3'X3' sheet of cardboard and put your target in the middle and step back 100 yards and shoot. Adjust your sights to correct the error of the first bullet. Do this until you get one where you want it. Then shoot a three shot spread to insure they are all going where you want them. Then go home and have lunch while your empty cases are tumbling... Laughing

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roklok
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:06 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

Sorry Suzanne, did not mean to confuse you, and I am more than a bit confused by your post. Smile I should be the one apologizing to you !! Bushmasters suggestion is best, simply shoot at 100 yards and adjust accordingly. I brought all this up because I did not want you to be surprised when your rifle was shooting high at 150-200 yards when you expected it to be right on.

I will give you a real life example. My long range deer-sheep-wolf rifle is a .270 Win. The scope is 1.5 inches above bore. My handloads use the Hornady 130 gr SST with a BC of .460 @ 3200 FPS. I have this rifle sighted in 3 inches high@ 100 yds. At 50 yards it is shooting only about an inch above point of aim (crosshairs). At 150 yards it is just under 4 inches high, and at 200 yards it is a bit over 3 inches high. It is dead on at 290 yards. At 500 yards it is two feet low. My point is, @50 yards the bullet is striking only about an inch above crosshairs, yet at 200 yds it is over 3 inches high. I have actually shot this rifle out to 500 yards to test the trajectory at varying ranges.

If I would have this rifle and load shooting 3 inches high at 50 yards, at 250 yards it would be hitting almost a foot high !!

From my experience, if your data entries are accurate (actual chronographed velocities, for example) the point blank program on this site is amazingly accurate.

Have fun, go out and shoot at 100 yards and see what they are doing ! Let us know how it turns out.
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roklok
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

Read your post again, missed a few things. The crosshairs should be placed where you want the bullet to land. Thing is, there are only two places in a bullets trajectory where the point of impact coincides with point of aim (crosshairs). With my aforementioned .270 hitting three inches high at 100 yards, the bullet crosses the line of sight at about 25 yards and again at 290 yards. At all other ranges the point of impact will be either lower or higher than the line of sight. However, figuring an 8 inch vital zone, I can place the crosshairs in the center of that 8 inch circle and theoretically (not taking into account the accuracy of me or the rifle) hit it from the muzzle out to about 340 yards with no holdover.

I think you will find that if you have the point of impact coinciding with your point of aim (crosshairs) at 50 yards, at 100 yards you will be roughly an inch high. That is an estimate without knowing the exact velocity or height of your scope above bore.

Things are good in Alaska, getting ready to go out and get my moose in a couple weeks. Hope your folks have a great visit !
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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

Hang in there Suzanne.

Everything Roklok says is correct....but I must admit, a little confusing for someone who is just starting out in "the game".

Don't get too wrapped around the axles with scope/sight height above the bore. The only reason Point Blank wants your sight height above the bore is to allow it to do the calculations for the trajectory of the load.

Decide what range you want your rounds to be hitting point of aim at...enter the data, and you can then get the Point Blank Range from the Point Blank Program. You can also look at the trajectory data for your load and see what the point of impact is at different ranges for that load.

Example:

Using hypothetical figures (should be reasonably close to your load though)...lets assume that you want your boolits to hit point of aim at 200 yards. Now, if you do your zeroing shoot at 100 yards, according to the trajectory table in Point Blank Online, then your rounds should print 2.63 inches high at 100 yards.

Yards.....Height

50..........1.49
100........2.63
125........2.62
150........2.20
175........1.33
200........0.00
225.......-1.86
250.......-4.17
275.......-7.13
300.......-10.78

With a 10 inch kill zone, and your rifle zeroed to hit POA at 200 yards, your Point Blank Range is a fraction under 300 yards...that is, you could expect to hit within the kill zone between 50 yards and just under 300 yards without having to "aim off"...so long as you do your bit.

As I said...these figures are not exact because I don't have all the data , but they should be reasonably close.

If you haven't already, download the Point Blank Ballistics software from this site and start entering your data. You will never look back.

As the guys say....put a target out at 100 yards and put some holes in it...with your boolits of course...things will become clearer then.

Cheers, Vince

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fnuser
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

I'm scared, what did you do to your sear?

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

fnuser wrote:
I'm scared, what did you do to your sear?

Was thinking the same!!! Was also thinking.......never mind!!!

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Gil Martin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject: Altering a military trigger Reply with quote

This is not something to be undertaken without some degree of expertise. I have seen '98 Mauser, 1903 Springfield and U.S. 1917 Enfield rifles that had the first hump of the sear reduced to eliminate the first stage of trigger pull. Some of the old gunsmiths seemed to have known what they were doing. I have other sporterized military rifles that have had the triggers drilled and tapped and a set screw installed to adjust trigger travel. All the best...
Gil

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wiersy111
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

Wow that's a lot of info flying around. I think you even confused me. Like Bushy said take a big old target and set it at the range you decide. Once you get your groups tight and hitting your point of aim then start experimenting with adjusting for long range shooting. It will give you a reason to cook up more shells and another reason to shoot more.

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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

OK OK OK I got it! and a hearty thank you to all who have performed so well. Gents all!! After I get some ammo lined up again I will perform for you my magic targets act and hopefully show you what I want to show you. Yeow you caught the sear thing? Was wondering if something might be said about my nasty deed on the sear. Well all the trigger jobs I ran into on the internet didn't address the problem I had with my Mauser. It's not the 2 stage trigger or the humps that bothered me, it was the trigger creep after the 2nd stage of the pull. It's a rather hard pull anyway and it was also gritty feeling and had lots of creep to it. I looked at the sear and in the first stage of the pull, the sear drops down a bit , not much. On the second stage of the pull the sear drops the rest of the way down. That's where I decided to relieve some of the sear. The top of it. That shortens the amount of creep on the pull. I thought of polishing the face of the sear to get rid of that gritty feeling, but also thought, if I polish it, it will be too slipery and possibly not felt at all. I bought 2 extra triggers just in case, and haven't modified my original (also just in case). Last weekend I fired off about 30rnds so see how it works and it seems wonderfully better, crisper and more definite. If you can tell me what's terribly wrong with what I did, I would appreciate your comments, because I don't actually know and I don't want to be without a nose or eye, it just seemed like the logical thing to do. I removed about maybe 1mm or so from the top of the sear, to make it break faster without so much creep, seems to work. Please let me know if my future involves an eye patch.
Suz

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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: How-m-I-doin? (target photos) Reply with quote

Well I can always buy a fancy schmancy fully adjustable trigger group for the thing but I figured a little nail polish would do just the same. Vince, Bushy you can back me up on that right? Fnuser is an endowed member and I don't think he's thinkin what I'm thinkin with anyway. You know, bein endowed an all. No offense but people don't usually divulge things like that on the first meeting. I can't get the gun to prematurely bump-fire if that's what you're getting at. Other than that I don't know what harm can be done.

Suz

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