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Suzanne Super Member
Joined: Jun 27, 2009 Posts: 3323 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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StoveP you can sell it, you just can't make it with the intent of selling it. The English language is elegant that way. Sell it to a friend or hand it down to your family, don't know if a gun shop would want it but actually all they have to do is put a serial number on it and record it in their books.
Suz
_________________ May the moon keep you centered,
May the sun keep you dancing,
And the stars shed light on your dreams. |
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PaulS Super Member
Joined: Feb 18, 2006 Posts: 4330 Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:57 am Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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Suz,
The builder has to pay for the registration of the serial number when it is transfered.
Doesn't matter who it is transfered to or how. The $200 tax is required to transfer the firearm if it was manufactured after a specific date.
I had to look at the ATFE site and go through a couple of pages to find it hidden toward the bottom of a page. If you make a phone call they will cite it for you without the chase.
_________________ Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads |
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dhc4ever Super Member
Joined: May 26, 2011 Posts: 2944 Location: Ipswich, Queensland Australia
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:59 am Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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Oh this just gets better and better, you Ba#$!@*&.
You can build your own semi auto in exotic or common calipers, doesnt need a S/N unless you sell it?
And the gubbermint dont care?
We need a progrom against politicians, journos and inner city latte sipping anti gun intellectuals.
Now going for a beer and a good cry.......
_________________ Pete
Dont do anything you wont like explaining to the paramedics.............. |
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Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15704 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:11 am Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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_________________ Cheers, Vince
Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done) |
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stovepipe Super Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2008 Posts: 4877 Location: Pine, Az.
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:51 am Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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dhc4ever wrote: |
Oh this just gets better and better, you Ba#$!@*&.
You can build your own semi auto in exotic or common calipers, doesnt need a S/N unless you sell it?
And the gubbermint dont care?
[[[We need a progrom against politicians, journos and inner city latte sipping anti gun intellectuals.]]]
Now going for a beer and a good cry....... |
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel!
+1000
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11390 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:35 am Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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Come to America dhc4ever...We could use a few good Aussies here.
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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stovepipe Super Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2008 Posts: 4877 Location: Pine, Az.
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:35 am Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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Suzanne wrote: |
StoveP you can sell it, you just can't make it with the intent of selling it. The English language is elegant that way. Sell it to a friend or hand it down to your family, don't know if a gun shop would want it but actually all they have to do is put a serial number on it and record it in their books.
Suz |
(no disrespect Suz.... ...but here goes)
It's a "wobble law". Poorly worded. Lots of room for the ATF to slap your hand and make you life pretty miserable. If you made it, has no S#, just keep it or destroy it. If you want to sell it? Tons of hoops, like a normal DROS has, esp. one with no S# post 1968.
Sounds nit-picky but....that's how I roll and I won't advocate doing anything that may or may not skirt a law.
How I read the laws?
1- I will not sell or exchange one without a S#. Nor should anyone. Period.
2- Also- when machining the lower, YOU must do it yourself, no "straw machinist" for hire, etc., that's the whole thing with building your own. Period.
That's how I see this whole thing. I'm not alone!
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11390 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:44 am Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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Hell...If I still lived in the USSR of C I would have to serialize my "spit wad shooter" and my "clothespin bean shooter".
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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stovepipe Super Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2008 Posts: 4877 Location: Pine, Az.
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:59 am Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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They banned straws, rubber bands, clothes pins and light bulbs!
NEVER going back. Ever.
(almost forgot)
STUPID LIBERALS!!!!
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11390 Location: Ava, Missouri
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stovepipe Super Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2008 Posts: 4877 Location: Pine, Az.
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:29 am Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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Mornin' Bushboss!
Barns mucked out, 3'rd pot on the brew, tractor will be serviced by lunch.
Then I'll go rat whompin in the barn with the .22 and some #12. If there's a pitchfork leanin against the door, I'm in there huntin (and patching .45cal holes- since when do rats climb walls 7 feet up??? Geez!), so you and that hog leg stay out!
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Suzanne Super Member
Joined: Jun 27, 2009 Posts: 3323 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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Calling the local ATF office in my state to clarify. He said that the intent is the important part of the law. He gave an example of if you build one gun this year and sell it next year that's probably not built with the intent to sell. If you build three guns and sell them, you're probably manufacturing with the intent to sell. If you build a gun and sell it then build the exact same gun, that may be intent. Anyway, he said there's no number, its all arbitrary and their opinion.
With regards to marking;
The agent I spoke with said he couldn't find any information where an individual who manufactures a firearm is required to mark it. I asked him about the marking it (should it be sold or lawfully transferred in the future) with regards to how an FFL would enter an unmarked weapon in their books. He said they would enter it similar to a gun made before 1968 when serial numbers weren't required and that my name would be listed as the manufacturer.
So, according to the agent, I can manufacture a gun for personal use. I can later at some point in the future decide I no longer want it and sell or trade it (so long as the intent when building it is NOT to sell it). I am not required to mark it in any way before sale
Just to make me more secure about the subject I went to the ATF website and found this;
When does a receiver need to have markings and/or serial numbers?
Receivers that meet the definition of a “firearm” must have markings, including a serial number. See 27 CFR § 478.92 (Firearm manufacturers marking requirements).
And if you go to the above mentioned section of the regs and read them they're referring to Licensed Manufacturers of Firearms. The entire thing is worded that way. I'm not a licensed manufacturer.
What is ATF doing in regard to people making firearms?
There are no federal restrictions on an individual making a firearm for personal use, as long as it does not violate the GCA or National Firearms Act (NFA)......(which is all about machineguns, barrel lengths, silencers)
Can an individual make large quantities of firearms and sell them?
If an individual is “engaged in the business” (defined below) as a manufacturer or seller of firearms then that person must obtain a federal firearms license. In addition, manufacturers have a variety of specific responsibilities under the Gun Control Act, such as including a serial number and other markings on all firearms.
Under 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(21)(A), the term “engaged in the business” means— as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.
. Can anyone make firearms and sell them?
With certain exceptions, and subject to any state law that might apply, as long as an individual is not prohibited from possessing a firearm, he or she can make a firearm for personal use. If an individual wants to manufacture and sell firearms, he or she is required to obtain a license, and mark each firearm manufactured in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92. [18 U.S.C. 923(i), 26 U.S.C. 5822]
State laws take precedent over federal laws in every matter. Typically there are no state laws that are more lax than federal laws. If there isn’t a specific state law, federal law is the unwritten state law.
So it's like I said, as long as you don't intend on manufacturing for sale, then it's another ball game of licensing and marking. After a few years of use and I'm tired of it and want to sell it, I see no written regulation that prohibits it or even mentions it. All of the marking regulations are aimed at licensed manufacturers, not unlicensed hobbyists.
If I were you and felt nervous about it, and I wanted to sell it, you could always disassemble the lower, keep the parts and upper for sale.
Suz
_________________ May the moon keep you centered,
May the sun keep you dancing,
And the stars shed light on your dreams. |
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PaulS Super Member
Joined: Feb 18, 2006 Posts: 4330 Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State
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Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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Ok, I had the "business of manufacture for profit" part screwed up in my head I guess.
Suz, it looks like you are correct. Thanks for your diligence!
Now I have to buy some tooling for my lathe.
_________________ Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads |
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Suzanne Super Member
Joined: Jun 27, 2009 Posts: 3323 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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Sorry Paulie it's in my nature to poke everyone in the back so they sit up straight (and I know it's annoying). Just didn't want people to think it's a risky proposition cause it's really fun to ream out a lower and be able to use it. I did a couple of the plastic ones and used my drill press with an x-y vice and milling bit. Don't know if it would work on aluminum very well but the plastic lowers are good enough for me. The place I got them from had a bunch of factory seconds or over-runs and they cost about $25 or $30 ea. so I couldn't pass it up.
Suz
_________________ May the moon keep you centered,
May the sun keep you dancing,
And the stars shed light on your dreams. |
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11390 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: AR Feeling the need |
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Hi Mom....
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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