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weighty question
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Morax
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:49 am    Post subject: weighty question Reply with quote

ok this is going out to a few folks here with serious reloading time under thier belts.. when you reload, how much weight differance in the bullet itself will accually change where it hits? I ask because i know someone new to reloading, and is having a fit over the bullets he is buying are a few grain different in weight.. in particular he tossed me a handfull of 62 grain varmint grenades, weighed the critters and he was getting 61-up to 64 grain differances, i told him a small variance would be normal but he insists this would change it to the point of being inches off at long distance. i in turn loaded the closest (62 even) and the furthest (63.8) and shot them at 200 yards and keyholed the target, so whats the deal??
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

Simple question...Your friend is either a fanatic or a 1,000 yard shooter. At hunting ranges the weight difference won't make any difference as you noted when you shot them at 200 yards. You wouldn't see any or little difference at 300 yards.

I know reloaders that weight every case, bullet, and powder charge they drop. Me? I just worry about the powder charge I drop in the case. I weigh every charge I drop. And I get picked on for that. I just don't trust my powder dispenser to give me the same amount everytime. Every thing else I leave to the fanatics and 1,000 yard shooters...

I load Sierra 165 grain HPBT's and Sierra 180 grain BTSP with about the same amount of powder (58.0 to 60.0 grains of H4831SC). The difference in POI between the two is about one inch. The 180's hitting higher.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

Unless I was into benchrest shooting, ultra long range stuff, etc. I wouldn't bother with weighing my bullets or brass. So far, after about 30 years of handloading, I haven't seen a single case where I even thought bullet weight variations could be an issue. It certainly would be about the last thing I'd think of checking if I had any accuracy problem.

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Morax
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

this was my thinking on it as well, there is a lot more things that could "be wrong" for accuracy to be a problem but you guys confirmed my thoughts thanks
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English Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

Run the different weights through Point Blank & allow a slight drop in velocity for the heavier bullet.
I just tried it based on one bullet at 50gr & another at 55gr & 30fps slower.
The difference was maybe 1/4 inch at 300yds for my 22-250 load (assuming I did it right).
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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

I am talking such example as throwing a 250 grains .308 projectile from the 300 whisper.

Yeah I do notice different Point of Impact between different bullet weights but only if the differences are large - (at least 5 to 10 grains differences).
This I think is due to the fact that heavier bullets will travel a tad slower, given the same powder and firing circumstances.

Keyholing may be caused from the rifling twist unable to stabilize the projectile.
On very heavy (longer) projectiles you need faster twist to stabilize them.

If the bullet keyholes at tiny weight differences, there ought to be other factors such as too low velocity or "other" gremlins

I usually measure the length and weigh the projectiles and put them in batches with MY tolerances.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

I'm not sure here gelandangan, but I think when Morax said "key holing" he meant two bullet holes touching one another. Not tumbling. Right Morax?

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Vince
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

Jeff...I am with Bushy solidly on this one.

Variations of up to maybe 2 or 3 grains is common, even with commercially manufactured bullets.

At 200 yds I'd be very surprised to see a difference...but double or triple that and sure, a difference will be obvious. An easy way to check is to put another target at say 400 yds directly behind you 200 yd target. You should see a difference in POI.

The only shooters that would be concerned about minor variations like you indicate are as Bushy says...a fanatic or a 1,000 yard shooter.

Cheers, Vince

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:12 am    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

you may be right Bushy, I reckon different places refers to the same thing different ways.

Well, I did put out my 2c so there..

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Vince
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

gelandangan wrote:


Well, I did put out my 2c so there..

Have you got 2c at the moment Gelan??? Surprised Surprised I would have thought that in this current financial climate 2c is a small fortune mate.

Cheers, Vince

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Morax
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:31 am    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

yes bushy sorry i didnt clarify it, not thinking of the difference the same term meant. I was meaning close enough to open the first hole bigger and still only be one hole, i also appreciate the thoughts guys, slight variances is common to my findings, but i just figure this guy was running out of things to cry about so he had to find a new one... this is the same joker from before who has been trying to buy skills instead of attaining them through practice... I told him that one day "keep trying to buy skills" and he got mad hehehe oh well
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

That's O K Gelandangan...I can understand your misunderstanding. I had to read Morax's post a couple of times to figure he meant two holes touching...So don't feel bad...I too, though that "keyholing" was a tumbling bullet. I guess we could pick on Morax for this, but....We'll let it pass THIS TIME... ROFL

Ya gotta have at least one person at the range to keep ya entertained and on yer toes...And Morax has his... Very Happy

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popgun
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

Weighing every component is time consuming and if you have the time and money to buy bulk bullets, brass, and powder AND have the time to weigh and group components then go ahead and do it. Us retired ole goats have that time on our hands and just love to get those itty bitty groups even for hunting fodder.
It is true that all of that is not necessary for hunting ammo out to 300 yards but it is a confidence factor and a blame pointer when you miss. Very Happy
Hard to say its the ammo or gun when you bench a 0.2" group and miss a huge prairie dog at 300. Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Confused Confused Laughing Laughing Very Happy
I personally keep all my loading and grouping a secret so that when I do miss, and I do, I can blame all the above. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Morax
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

Bushmaster wrote:
That's O K Gelandangan...I can understand your misunderstanding. I had to read Morax's post a couple of times to figure he meant two holes touching...So don't feel bad...I too, though that "keyholing" was a tumbling bullet. I guess we could pick on Morax for this, but....We'll let it pass THIS TIME... ROFL

Ya gotta have at least one person at the range to keep ya entertained and on yer toes...And Morax has his... Very Happy

now see i thought keyholeing meant either one, a tumbling bullet striking "sideways" and also when two shots touch leaving one hole just larger than the origional hole was.. either way yes i have my cross to bear but am willing to trade Very Happy
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: weighty question Reply with quote

There are those, I am sure, that reside in insane asylums that have sought find perfection in handloading. The thought of juggling the myriad variables of components alone will cause their lower lip to tremble and induce million mile stares in their vacant minds as they look at blank walls. The horror, the horror. Beware: handloading is not for the faint of heart.

Extremes, however, can pay off. Well, at least moderate extremism can. Measurable benefits can be achieved by attention to some details that will result in shrinking groups as much as 50%, sometimes more. That's great for prairie dogging, but, it also is applicable to the big game endeavors, although far from the most important. Having complete confidence in one's ammo and the pride of making and using it can influence the outcome of hunts, a mindset.
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