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Recoil opinions?
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hunter63
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:39 pm    Post subject: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

After reading several threads and even posting the .577 T-Rex thread, got me to wondering what the recoil of different cal. really are.

Found this chart, and I realize that weight of gun, load, bullet weight, auto vs bolt etc, will have an effect on recoil.
But comparing the chart for different cal. kind of gives a different story of what a lot of people think, or think they feel.
www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

Example, I sold a Dan Wesson .44 mag to a friend, had been ported and had custom grips.
Mind you the guy had been a hunter/shooter for along time, favorite gum was a custom 30 cal. Gibbs (wildcat, 30-06 case blown out to short neck, so kinda a 30=06 mag?).
Gun would "boot you" pretty well, yet that didn't faze him, but wouldn't shoot the .44 mag till I did. To Many Dirty Harry flicks, I suspect.

Any thoughts?

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fireball 3
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

Very Happy my wife is a dainty thing so I load her 30-30 to around +/- 4ftlbs of recoil with a 150gr win rn. I use puflon to take up space. my 8/300 kicks out 35ftlbs with a 200gr partion. ouch! dave Very Happy
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fireball 3
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

update= the lee shooter program has a good sector for calculating recoil and energy. Iuse it alot. I also looked at the point blank program, it's got a good calculator in also. Now I have both programs on my comp. GREEAAT! DAVE Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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guncollector
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

The actual force of recoil is a matter of mathematics and is easily calculated. The felt recoil, on the other hand, is more of an art than a science. Clearly stock design on a rifle makes a big difference in felt recoil even before a recoil pad is added. If you've ever shot an old military rifle like a 1903 or a Lee-Enfield with a military stock, you've experienced how much harder the kick feels relative to a modern stock design with some drop. I think it is just a matter of how well the stock fits into your shoulder and what muscles, bones or other stuff it is pushing against.

I've heard people say that some calibers have less felt recoil because it is more of a push than a smack. Can't say I've had that experience even though it is supposed to be true with my 338.

Handgun felt recoil is influeced by the grips of course but I think the biggest influence is your grip - your technique. I learned that shooting a 454 Casull and it taught me to improve my grip and overall technique in a hurry. Made a huge difference when I learned to do it right.

What have other folks got to say about felt recoil?

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

guncollector's comments are in line with my own experience relative to stock design. Long ago Newton informed us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Ft/lbs tells us the energy of the bullet and, therefore, the energy of the recoil. IOW if we have rifles that are identical in all regards other than the cartridge for which they are chambered and one load develops 1000 ft/lbs and other 2000 ft/lbs, then in simplistic terms it is correct to say felt recoil is doubled one to the other.
The time duration of the recoil cycle relative to muzzle velocity and the area in contact with the shooter (keeping in mind stock weight) moderate those ft/lbs into tolerable recoil levels.
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terry264
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

I've seen these formulas before and have a question. What would the wt. of the powder charge possibly have with recoil? ????????????
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Morax
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:36 am    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

right off the top of my head i would say a 5 grain powder charge goes bang push, where a 45 grain charge goes boom SHOVE..
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sniper
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

terry264 wrote:
I've seen these formulas before and have a question. What would the wt. of the powder charge possibly have with recoil? ????????????

The weight of the powder charge plus the weight of the bullet is called the "ejecta", and figures prominently in the calculation of recoil.
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guncollector
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

Conservation of energy basically. Force = 0.5 x mass x velocity squared. The mass of the rifle x the velocity squared of its movement in recoil must equal the mass of the bullet plus the mass of the powder times the velocity of the bullet squared.

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sniper
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

Figuring significantly in any recoil scenario is the human factor.

Example: I have a genetic condition that renders me extremely sensitive to loud, sharp noises; a puppy's yap, firecrackers, machinery noises, loud exhausts, you name it. At a distance, it will set my nerves on edge, and close up, I want to run away and hide.
Even with GOOD hearing protection, somebody shooting at the next bench will make me jumpy fast Recently, I discovered I have a bad flinch,even shooting my rimfires.

That is a TERRIBLE affliction for an avid shooter to have. But, you compensate the best you can, and when possible, avoid crowded days at the range.

An Outdoor Life editor did a series of tests some years ago, and came to the conclusion that as popular as they are, The 30-06 and .270 are, for the general run of people, the upper limit of comfortable shoting.

The milder cartridges, at about 75% of the '06,recoil --- .308, 7MM Mauser, and 7mm 08, are right on the threshold of, as he termed it, "I can shoot them o.k., , but would rather not."

The more comfortable calibers, 6.5MM Swedish, 257 Roberts, 6MM, .243, 30-30, and similar, are easier to shoot, and produce generally better results.

The .260 Remington (a ballistic twin of hte 6.5mm Swede) was developed as the result of Jim Charmichael's sudden onset of flinching while competing in 1,000 yard matches with his 30-06. The .260 Bobcat , a 6.5mm round, allowed him to compete again, without the flinch.

It is subjective with many people, and tinged by the suspicion that anyone who had any sort of admited recoil sensitivity is somehow, a wimp. Falsehood dies a looooong death.
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Morax
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

hey i dont have the flinch problem, nor am i recoil sensitive, but it is nice to go out for a day of shooting without the sore shoulder or the "WHAT YOU SAY" effects...
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hunter63
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

I agree with the "flinch".
Most people won't admit that they do, and I know I need to do the breathing/squeeze at the bench. But I know that and can get by pretty well.
I don't know about you, but I never feel or even hear the shot while hunting, just get in the groove, lock on and shoot.

Was benching my 7mm mag at the "farmer range", had put 50-60 rds thru it when this guy showed up.
He had a new .338 win mag. Got a "good deal" on it from his BIL, owner of a sports shop.

So I let him use my bench, and targets.
He started flinching so bad that he couldn't even hit a 4' X 4' target board.
He started cussing the gun, then asked me if I wanted to try it.
The last thing I wanted to do at this point was shoot that after banging up my shoulder on the 7 mag, but I was able to group 5 in about 2" w/ open sights @ 100. Sights need some work though.

As he tried it again, I noticed that he had loaded the shell in the magazine. but didn't have the bolt far enough back, so didn't chamber it as he worked the bolt forward.
So there he sat, head turned away, squeezing and shaking with all of his might, gun didn't fire.
At that point, he looked up at us, emptied the shell, packed up his stuff and left.
I think he took it back.

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

I think alot of people flinch to the noise, sometimes even worse than the recoil. My 6 year old has no idea about "recoil" being something to be scared off... hes learned to shoot with proper shooting protection, and I've kept him on very mild recoiling rifles like my 17HMR (recoil is non-existant). I'm going to work with him to get him shooting my .22-250 this summer. My wifes picked up a flinch that we'll work through this summer as well.

IMO the greatest single advice i've ever had to reduce flinching is simply, "squeeze slowly, it should be a surprise when the gun fires" ... if you are indeed squeezing slowly when the gun goes off, you have no time to flinch.


-DallanC
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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

DallanC wrote:
IMO the greatest single advice i've ever had to reduce flinching is simply, "squeeze slowly, it should be a surprise when the gun fires" ... if you are indeed squeezing slowly when the gun goes off, you have no time to flinch. -DallanC

I agree totally with what you said Dallan. They taught us the same in the Army....every shot should be a surprise when it goes off. Additionally, they taught us to "follow through" after firing the shot.....come back onto target then relax....or prepare to fire your next shot.

A way to "show" the flinch, then start dealing with it, is to put a couple of dummy rounds in the magazine staggered with live ones....but don't tell the shooter. They will see the flinch when it happens. Very Happy

cheers. Vince

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SwampFox
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: Recoil opinions? Reply with quote

One thing that was left out of the thread so far is the visual and herd portions of felt recoil. Most folks associate vicious recoil with muzzle blast, muzzle flash and quick gun movement. Example a muzzle rise is associated with heavy recoil as is a flash and blast of a short barrel gun. These precieved items can be far outside the reality of the actual free recoil determined by calculation.

Example of this is the 1903A3 which has a reputation for delivering some of the most severe recoil in the 30-06 chambering. The actual free recoil is 18-20 lbs. The preception of felt recoil is more in the 32-35 lbs range.

Good reminder Vince, the dummy round application is the number one tool of a shooting coach. I used the tool many times as a coach on the 101st Abn rifle and pistol team. Use the dummy rounds over and over again untill the shooter stops flinching. Allow the person to shoot a full magazine or cylinder then put the dummys back in. One dummy, live, two dummy, next three dummy, mix them up, etc. If you do your job of helping correctly, the flinch can be controlled, but you must revisit the drill from time to time. Any shooter can develop a flinch at any time.

Oh, you can do the drill yourself, put the dummy rounds in your hand with live rounds, close your eyes, mix the rounds, load them in the cylinder or magazine, close the action, open your eyes and start shooting.
Ed

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