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clembob Member
Joined: Jul 10, 2011 Posts: 28 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:07 pm Post subject: Black cases from burnt powder |
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Just been developing a load in .243 with a 55gn Sierra Blitz king 1502 new batch of Winchester brass
Loaded 15 with Varget (41,42,43,44,45grains) 2.650 COAL from Lee 2nd edition Data and 9 with Vit 140 ( 40,41,42 grains) 2.630 COAL from Sierra data.
Varget did not group well for any powder weight but cases all clean.
N140 grouped well best was 42 which had two bullets on bullet but cases came out black even the bolt face was black!
Rifle was a savage mod 16fcss fitted with a Ase Ultra S5 mod.
Also necks would not need resizing as bullet cannot be hand pressed into case (cases tight being pushed onto lee collet die mandrel).
Why would the cases and bolt face get powder residue on them I've only ever seen a small amount round the neck before and why only on V140?
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Ominivision1 Super Member
Joined: Sep 20, 2010 Posts: 2984 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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I have never used N140 but to me it sounds like a to light load with that powder, as the case was not sent back against the bolt face to push the primer back in and the gases leaked around the bolt face. I just looked ip in my pdf book and cannot find a listing for the 55gr pill, however, the hornady sxsp 70gr takes 39.7 min to 44.1grs max for the 70gr pill with col 2.638". This again tells me the loads are too light in powder and leaking.
The guys/gals that are familiar with that powder will chime in shortly.
_________________ Regards
Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds. |
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Ominivision1 Super Member
Joined: Sep 20, 2010 Posts: 2984 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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One other thought came to me was that maybe the primers are not seating all the way, but since you are using the same brass (new and checked?) and checked primer pockets? If so than I would lean towards too light of a powder charge for your load.
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Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds. |
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clembob Member
Joined: Jul 10, 2011 Posts: 28 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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Just looked at the case agaign and the case head is not black nor is the bolt face where the case comes in contact but the lugs and case extraction grove is very black along with soot streaks down the case and neck.
Primer pockets look fine they had had an rcbs pocket tool used along with the flash hole de-burred before loading.
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clembob Member
Joined: Jul 10, 2011 Posts: 28 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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Here is the Sierra Load Data with the Vit140 listed
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Sierra Load data
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sierra243win.zip |
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81.16 KB |
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567 Time(s) |
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fnuser Super Member
Joined: Dec 23, 2008 Posts: 914 Location: S.W. Missouri, U.S.A.
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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Is it possible you enlarged the vent hole when you deburred them? Nevermind if the primers are not backing out. Or are they? I got lost reading down the thread I hadn't noticed that but Omni mentions it. But yeah soot around the case is usually an under-pressure indicator.
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HayCreek Member
Joined: Sep 10, 2011 Posts: 36 Location: Central ND
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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Gotta agree with fnuser. Light load. Case isn't expanding enough to seal the chamber and the bullet-tight neck is another indicator.
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5001 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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VihtaVouri Oy does list a load for a 58 grain bullet in the .243 on their website:
www.vihtavuori-lapua.c...a-2006.pdf
Kinda odd that the last info given is from 2006.
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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Aloysius Super Member
Joined: Nov 03, 2009 Posts: 2440 Location: B., Belgium
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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Pumpkin, maybe this is better
www.lapua.com/upload/d...011eng.pdf
and in my opinion: when the neck is not black and the boltface is, then I wouldn't think about underload but I would check what's wrong with the primer/primerpocket.
Gasses cannot reach the bolt without touching the neck, unless they know a shortcut... meaning split case or primerpocket.
And for what it's worth: I don't shoot the .243 Win myself, but when I would, unless I had a very short barrel I would opt for a heavier bullet, a slower powder f.e. N160 and with N160 I always use magnum primers.
And FYI: I'm reloading for about 30 years and still got all my fingers
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Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15714 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:57 am Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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Like Aloys...I load a heavier bullet for the .243...55gns is the lowest weight I would even remotely consider, and even then I don't think it is doing the calibre any favours. I load an 85gn bullet, with 37.5gns of Varget, and don't experience any sooting problems...and its a very accurate load to boot.
I tend agree with all of the above...its leaning towards a light load. I would consider that, for a 55gn bullet, a slightly faster powder would be a better option than Varget, say H4895 (40gn start - 44.5gn max) or Benchmark (39gn start - 41.5gn max).
Whilst we are all considering a light load, I would also be looking at other areas as well...are the cases the correct length (I've had new Winchester cases that were long), is the chamber in spec for instance, what is the headspace like?
Cheers, Vince
_________________ Cheers, Vince
Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
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Elvis Super Member
Joined: Jul 27, 2008 Posts: 9253 Location: south island New Zealand
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:22 am Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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man thats a light projectile alright. why would you go so light?? Ive seen 90grners for the .270 but couldnt think why you would use them a 110 is light enough to go super quick and explosive. surely something 70-85 grns would do it all and more in .243 if you can get hold of Taipan projectiles you wont worry about recochets or lack of expansion EVER again they blow up very nice and there are even better projectiles than that on the market.
_________________ You shot it You pluck it !
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chambered221 Super Member
Joined: Aug 17, 2007 Posts: 3455 Location: Lost for good !!!
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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Not a thing wrong with a 55gr bullet ........... they light but work just fine !!!
I'm in agreement with not enough pressure.
What primer did you use ??? What did the load data use ???
_________________ Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
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clembob Member
Joined: Jul 10, 2011 Posts: 28 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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Hi All
The primer is a standard cci large no splitting or sooting round primer.
The load data came from Sierras own site for the butllet (zip file attacded to this thread)
55 grain for fox 100 yards range
Thanks so far
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chambered221 Super Member
Joined: Aug 17, 2007 Posts: 3455 Location: Lost for good !!!
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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Sierra data used a Federal 210M, (match) that primer is hotter than the CCI's !!!
I suggest you either bump the load or switch to the Federal and try again.
_________________ Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington |
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clembob Member
Joined: Jul 10, 2011 Posts: 28 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder |
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Well I went back to the range with the fired cases reloaded as below.
I cleaned the outside of the case and then just neck sized reloaded the same load of V140 I also had BLC-2 loads 43,44,45,46,47 both loads showed no sootting on the case, bolt lugs or on the case grove just a very small amount on the neck and shoulder just like my .223 and .308..
The interesting thing is that the necks are still tight from both loads.
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