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Brass Weights
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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MacD
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Brass Weights Reply with quote

First post so I thought I should make some sort of contribution before asking for free advice.

Being new to hand loading I have been busy acquiring as much data as possible on the various cartridge components. I was at the range on Friday and picked up a selection of fired 223 brass. I cleaned and trimmed all to the same length and then weighed 5 each of the 10 head stamps I picked up using my powder scale. Here are the averages (grains) for each: (Manufacturers identified using this site's information. cartridgecollectors.or...codes.htm)

GFL 97.5 (Fiocchi)

CJ 96.4 (Norinco)

IVI 95.9 (Valcartier Industries)

TZ 94.4 (Israeli Military Industries)

WCC 93.1 (Western Cartridge Company)

FC 92.5 (Federal) (two stamps one with a dot between 223 and Rem and one without? Both had same average)

Win 92.4 (Winchester)

LC 91.9 (Lake City)

Hornady 91.0

When I get a chance I am going to check water volumes and compare with weights. If they have an equally wide span I can see why people say work up loads whenever you change brass.
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Vince
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:49 am    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

Welcome aboard Mac...grab yourself a beer and pull up a stump to the fire mate.

Well done on your initial steps to identify differences between different brands of cases. You will also find a significant difference between .223 cases manufactured for civilian use and military use as well.

Free advice is something we are all happy to provide here mate. We are all enthusiasts and have at one time or another drawn on the knowledge of others with more experience than ourselves. One thing I've always said and that is..."the only stupid question is the one you don't ask". If you have any doubts about your experience or knowledge, feel free to ask for assistance...better to ask what you may think is a a stupid question than to keep quiet and make a stupid mistake.

It looks like your calibre of choice is the .223 Rem, and there is no shortage of guys here who share that obsession and are extremely knowledgeable... and happy to pass on that knowledge.

Cheers, Vince

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

welcome Mac, good to see another .223 user look forward to hearing from you in the forums get your toes wet and you will see we arent too hard to get on with.

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MacD
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

Thanks for the welcomes.

I also shoot and have started reloading 308. Been away from shooting and hunting for years. I retire in 6 months and needed a hobby. Going hunting moose in late October-November. Have been working up some 308 loads with a selection of bullets. So far found out that you really need to push a Hornady 190 grain BTSP at max in a 1 in 12 twist to get fair accuracy but a Barnes TSX at 168 grains gives, for me, excellent groups of 1.25 to 1.75 inches at 100 yards. This is from a Marlin X7S with a 22 inch sport barrel.

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

Those 2 calibers will cover most things you would want to hunt.
Also being military based rounds there is plenty of information, components available and generally prices on these 2 are fairly cheap. Both are inherently accurate.
Welcome to the madhouse.
Cheers

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

Welcome!

Cheers!

Vince has the beers!
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MacD
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

Thanks again. I have been looking for a place to hang out and I think I have found it. We drink a bit of beer up here in Canada and I am trying to do my patriotic part to keep the breweries at full production.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

Welcome Mac! I think you'll like it here.

I'm going to be looking for .308 loads soon so please share your results. I just picked up a Ruger Scout Rifle.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

MacD wrote:
When I get a chance I am going to check water volumes and compare with weights. If they have an equally wide span I can see why people say work up loads whenever you change brass.

Since each manufactures' brass have different hardness and densities, I expect you will find volume goes up as case weight goes down within like brass, but may not correlate between manufacture.

Welcome to HuntingNut!

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:47 am    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

MacD wrote:
Thanks again. I have been looking for a place to hang out and I think I have found it. We drink a bit of beer up here in Canada and I am trying to do my patriotic part to keep the breweries at full production.

Well wee Mac...sounds like you are like a few more of us in here who have made it our life's work in retirement to study Chemistry...subject major being turning alcohol into urine. Very Happy Very Happy Laughing Laughing

Cheers, Vince

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Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
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MacD
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

Okay checked water volumes with a syringe as my measuring device. It was graduated in .10 CC. I ran the measurements twice just to ensure accuracy. I covered each primer hole with my finger and then filled the case to overflowing. Being careful to not spill any I gently shook the drops off the outside of the case to ensure only the water in the case went into the open topped syringe barrel (plunger removed). I tapped the case on the edge of the barrel opening to get the last drops out of the case. Here are the (surprising) results in descending order of volume with an approximate grains of Varget powder equivalent based on the table that came with my Lee powder measure (1 grain = .0731cc.)

GFL, TZ Hornady, IVI, CJ, and FC with dot all came out the same 1.8cc = 24.62
Winchester 1.85cc = 25.31
LC 1.9cc = 26.0
WCC and FC without dot 2.0cc = 27.36

I am going to do one more comparison. I will load each with fine table salt and then record to weight of each load of salt. If this agrees with the water results I feel I can trust those results.

Stay tuned, don't touch that dial, to be continued.
PLEASE SEE UPDATE BELOW.

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Last edited by MacD on Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

It might be better when you could put your case (empty and full) on a scale and weight them. It's even advised to put a little soap in the water to avoid trapping air inside.

And when I should do such a thing, I most possibly would take a fired case without resizing. Then my primer will still block the primerhole + I'm measuring the volume of something that's in relation with my gun's chamber and not with my dies (because I'll try necksizing most of the time).
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

Good post Mac, here is a page that list approximate case capacities with water plus it also has a calculator if you have dimensions and weight of a case. As we can see, this is one of the reasons reloading books advise starting 10% below max charges.

kwk.us/cases.html

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MacD
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

OK my water measurements proved erroneous. Live and learn. Thanks for the advice and link. I will try again when I want to waste another hour LOL.

Here are the "salt" weights. Again I am just learning and again I am not sure if the results are 100% accurate but hey I got out of trimming the lawn.

TZ - 32.5
GFL - 32.8
FC - 32.9 w/dot
CJ - 33.5
FC - 33.6 no dot
IVI - 32.6
Hornady 33.7
Win - 33.7
WCC - 33.7
LC - 33.8

Method was to plug primer hole with a paper plug, fill case with fine table salt, tap case head on desk and fill to overflowing then strike off with sharp edge. Cases were then emptied into powder pan and case then tapped onto a black hard surface to see if any grains of salt were left in case. Weights were on Lee powder scale and repeated twice.

Comments.

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fnuser
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Brass Weights Reply with quote

Hey pump, My fav is sierra 168 hpbt w rl15 in a lapua case and fed gmmlr primer always comes close to .5 m.o.a.

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