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"KNOCK" down POWER!!
Big Game Hunting topics that dont fit other categories
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Crackshot
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Joined: Oct 23, 2005
Posts: 1693
Location: Mich

PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Confused Not realy a Super high power rifle but I shot a huge Doe in northern Michigan 14 years ago with my dads Marlin 336 35 remington and that old bi^&** went down like a ton of brick landed on her.
I beleive now and always have that If you put a hole in the right place on a critter it will leak and die, So, to each his own. use what you will, I will use My "VANILLA" 30/06 and "Fudge topping" 35 remington, they have done the trick for years and will continue to do so. Shoot! my Granddaddy used to shoot deer with his old marlin 25/20, they were just as dead!
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yotebuster
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Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

I prefer a double lung shot and try and miss shoulders if at all possible. Sometimes with a quartering animal, mostly whitetails, that is not possible. And I do not prefer magnums myself. I guess some might call the 45-70 that I shoot sometimes overkill but that's the largest caliber that I have. It is a fun gun to shoot at 150 yards or less and is very effective on hogs, which is one of the reasons I bought it. Usually a .308, .270 or .257 Roberts will be in my hands.
With regards to knock down power, we enjoy shooting 2 liter plastic soda bottles filled completely with water and the cap screwed on tight. You would think that when being hit with any of the above mentioned calibers that those bottles would going flying backwards several feet when hit. Knockdown power right? Well, two things usually happen. Either they explode and just tip over or they will actually move uprange, closer towards the shooter. Whats happened is the water goes streaming out the exit hole and pushes the bottle the opposite direction, towards the shooter, kinda like jet propulsion.
I think knockdown power is way over-rated and is mostly Hollywood hype.
It's all about knowing your quarry's anatomy and bullet placement. Shoot a gun that you can comfortably handle and be able to shoot precisely with it is the name of the game.
Yotebuster
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Flint54
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Cool So True! A .22 LR in the right spot than a "Golly Gee Wiz Bang Magnum" in the wrong spot!!!!!!! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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JO422
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

The last time that I checked one of the laws of physics states "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". This means that if the bullet knock down an animal that weighs 200 lbs. the recoil from the rifle would knock down a shooter that weighs 200 lbs. When was the last time that anyone was knocked down by their recoil (that they are willing to admit anyway). "Knock down power" is a misnomer and it is more a result of shot placement than anything.

there are 2 ways that bullets kill animals, one is by causing massive blood loss that makes the circulatory system shut down and the other is by causing damage to the brain or centeral nervous system. The Central nervous system hits are usually an immediate stop.

There is also 2 thoughts with bullets, bigger bullets that go slow, don't really need to expand because of the already large caliber and that penetrate deeply. The other is smaller lighter bullets that go faster, penetrate less and cause damage through explosive expansion. This type of bullet casuses a massive temporary wound cavity and this is what accounts for the damage to meat.
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coyotibob
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:35 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Read an artical once by a man named Jim charmichel explaining how he shot at a moose in the boiler room with a reletively small caliber,cant remember what size it was but the point is he thought shooting it with that "small" caliber that it would run out of the bog and die on dry land.Instead the moose folded like a cheap card table right on the spot.Then he went on to talk about a water buffalo cull done by a university in africa where they autopsied every kill along with the immiadiate reaction of the shot and 100% of every buff that dropped like a rock had all blood vessels in the brain exploded.They surmized that the timing of the impact coincided with the pressure stroke of the heart beat and that caused a pressure spike on the vessels exploding them,which in turn caused the buff to gasp"CHECK PLEASE".
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mikekuzara
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Joined: Sep 13, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

As I saw in a recent magazine article. When an African big game guide was asked about the best place to shoot the large or dangerous animals he would reply "anywhere in the eye works every time".


Jo422 is absolutely right. Bullet placement and construction have a lot more to do with "stopping" than a compressed load of powder.

I have shot over 4 dozen deer over the years with every thing from a .243 to a 300 Win mag. They were all head shots and every one never took a step. The same with any of the deer that I have either hit with my vehicle or found on the road side after being hit. A .22 LR out of an old Herters single action pistol drops them just as quick at point blank range as a 300 mag does at 200 yards.

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beezer
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

I guess you must work mainly in Scotland deermanager as your clients sometimes use .222s. I'm a deer manager on an English estate and I habve to use 243 and up.
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Shomebigbores
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Joined: Dec 14, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Laughing Very Happy Very Happy I guess I'll drop another two cents worth. I have seen several deer killed when hit between the eyes with a 22 long rifle. Those deer dropped in their tracks.

I will again remind everyone of my affection for the 45/70 for anything from deer to elephant. Period. You don't lose that much meat in the rib cage gentlemen. If you have a broadside it is a no brainer, right behind the shoulder and try to miss the offhand leg. Lose a little meat sometimes, but never the deer. Sorry to disagree with the statement "never seen a deer knocked over with a heart lung shot", but all I can say is you have never hunted with a nice old slow 1650 fps 430 grain wide meplat .458, or you would not say that. I have picked one up and laid it down.

Whip

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yotebuster
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Very Happy So true Shomebigbores! I love that caliber. Earlier this season, I folded a deer like a cheap card table with a 400 grain Speer flatnose out of my 1885 High Wall. It is so much fun to shoot. Don't get near the bloodshot meat destruction as the high velocity magnums, of which I've never been much of a fan of personally.
Big Bores........gotta love em!
Yotebuster

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GroovyJack
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

HHHMMM hey hey ... Love it ,, always telling people that life starts at 375 , once you get into large medium and on up into large calibers , well everything else is well boring ..
Jack

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Spacedone
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Location: missouri

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

E=MC squared

a bullet weighing 150 gr traveling at excessive volocety is alot of kenetic energy.

a bone mass shot with most large bore guns hit with in excess of 1000 ft pounds per square inch which translates to many pounds at the bullet tip ie a large flat nosed bullet in say 50 cal traveling at 1000 fps hitting a target will give 500 ft pounds at impact.

you guys are comparing kill potential with knock down and they are different.
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Bushmaster
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Joined: Jun 12, 2005
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Location: Ava, Missouri

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

DallanC...You must weigh around 225lbs. Right? Now, I'm trying to be nice here. Well. I weigh in at 155 and 5' 7"...The .30-06 is still an exciting rifle calibre to shoot for me and I have been shooting for a number of years (Browning A-Bolt). Besides having the distinction of being probably one of the only cartridges to have killed about every game animal on the face of the earth plus a few that are not game animals. The .30-30 and the .30-06 are both tested, tried and true calibres. Because I am running out of time and don't have time to test every new calibre that comes out and not believing most of the data that hunters and shooters (like horse traders) say, print and swear is the gospel truth. I will consider the .30-06 an exciting cartridge. If and when my wife transfers me to Missouri I may have to revise that statement... Cheers

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Spacedone
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Location: missouri

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

30 06 is ballistically a perfect caliber

30 caliber at higher grainage and velocities = kill power vs recoil vs carryability { a 50 cal centerfire is just to blamed heavy to carry and is designed to destroy armor}.

the 30 30 is a perfect brush/ short range caliber and the 06 is a perfect open range/ long range caliber but recoil is sometimes excessive which is why i like the .311 303 enfields.

you can load them up to lower 06 velocities {2700-2900 fps} and kill elk at ranges of upto 400 yards or you can load them down to 30 30 levels {1800-2000 fps} and kill deer sized game at 2-300 yards. this allows you to use the same gun for most north american game and you decide how much kill power vs recoil you want. with a large assortment of bullet grains and a huge selection of powders if you reload. from 100 grain ballistic tips to 215 grain round nose softpoints.

i love 30 30 but it is not alot of real use at bigger game unless your right up close and i love the 06 for the bigger game but on missouri deer up close ie 100-200 yards its just a tad to much ruining alot of meat thru bloodshooting.

plus with new imports enfields are cheap cheap cheap, yes theyre old and most are UGLY but bang for the buck they are hard to beat IF you reload.

today you can buy a no 4 enifield for about 150 dollars in very good shape in military configuration and replace the wood with synthetic hunting stocks for about 100 dollars allowing you to get a rifle you can shoot any north american game with and most if not all game world wide for under 300 dollars and if your poor like me thats just impossible to beat.
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Shomebigbores
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Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Party ROFL Hiding

Opinions; Like rear ends, everybody has one. I have had three 30's. They did ok, except for the Remington autoloader in 30-06 and that was the barrel I suppose. 7.7 Jap that my cousin brought home from Okinawa was one beautiful shooting weapon. He killed the sniper and brought the rifle home. Model 70 in 300 Winchester Mag was good out to 400 yards. 30-30 Winchester did ok.

My problem is I can only hunt with one rifle at a time. I now own, 1. Model 60 Marlin 22 long rifle. 2. Model 700 Remington in 270 3. 1300 Winchester 12 ga. with rifled barrel, and then we have the one rifle that can do anything I need of it, from killing a mad Cape Buffalo to bringing home the meat from a deer without damaging the meat. (I have personally seen the deer fall over when I hit them, and I had as much meat as anyone with a 30. Sorry boys, you are using imagination (spacedone) and not ballistic fact nor common sense. I've been there and done that. The 45/70 is an old round, and is still able to kill anything on the planet. When a rifle will shoot through a Cape Buffalo, American Bison, and/or a Coastal Brown Bear at 200 yards what else do you need. If you aren't strong enough to carry it, then go with the 30 with my blessings, but I don't think you will find many 30 cal. kills on Cape Buffalo or Elephant. Oh well, this is just a poor boys opine, even though it is backed up with personal experience and ballistic/scientific fact.

ROFL ROFL Whip

heh heh,

Walt Mad

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One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill
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Spacedone
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

more elephants and cape buffalos have been killed with a 303 than any other modern gun, more polar bears and seals have been killed with the 303 than any other gun on the planet.

the 45/70 is a terriffic gun which will kill anything anywhere BUT are hard to comeby and can be very expensive, most ive seen are single shot and for the average modern person are not practical to hunt with. the average hunter who hunts one-two weeks a year {not like those of us who shoot every day} for the simple reason they dont shoot very flat.

my 303 loaded with accurate powder shoots over 2700 fps with over 2400 ft pounds giving 13 ft pounds of recoil giving me over 1600 ft pounds energy and over 2000fps at 200 plus yards. in other words you can kill a elk at 150 yards while i can kill that same elk at 300 yards. LOOK UP the ballistic data my 303 drops 5 inches at 300 yards while the 45-70 drops 24 inches and has a 1000 ft pounds energy and 1000 fps at 200 yards.

you use 70 grains of powder and i use 40.

i dont know how much it costs you to load a round but i bet its more than the 30 odd cents it costs me as well.

before you start making insults maybe you should actually look at ballistic data before you prove your a fool.

ive been shooting black powder over 20 years and yes large slow BP bullets do work very well but they can not compete against any modern cartridge or we would still be using the older style guns more often than we do.

in the hands of a average person the 45 70 is basically a rifled improved slug shootgun with a range of about 150 yards while of 303 will not only kill elk at 300 yards reliably but can shoot 1200 yards if needed {my ladder sight is set to 1300 yards with a actual kill/hit target range of about 600 yards and it cost me 175 dollars including the BSA scope.
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