Sounds like you either have a bad scope or a mounting problem. Could just be loose mounts and bases.

Vin2. I remember you telling me about the blackhorn powder. After this hunting season I will try it. And yes, some times I do "feel" the crud ring when I clean (after each shot), but many times I don't. I always do a lot of cleaning in that area and I always measure with the ramrod. Twice I have had to start over because of the bullet wouldn't seat... by at least an inch. And both times it was when I was trying to rush things. I just took the breech plug out, drained the powder, and pushed the bullet out. Hope that was exceptable.

As long as you got the job done with out incident or threat thereof you did good!!! There are a lot of prescribed techniques, but you have to use what works for you!! Oh,yes, don't forget that you need to use 209 SHOTGUN primers with Blackhorn powder. Blackpowder 209's will not spark hot enough.

The shotgun primers is what I have used. They seem to work OK.

Vin2, and anyone else out there, what do you see as a better powder? I have finally used my first jug of 777. I like the results I get (I use 112 grains with a 300 grain saboted bullet) with repeat accuracy of an inch or less at 100 yards. BUT, not with the first bullet. I have yet to fire one, clean and load, then try it the next day. I have had a lot of scope problems. First it was the base. Got that fixed and still had problems. Put the scope on a "scope" and found out that some times the scope wouldn't adjust at all and other times it would jump a lot with just one click. So it's on it's way back to Nikon and I have a replacement scope on that works correctly.

I tried cleaning differently between shots with much damper swabs (2) and 4 dry cleaning swabs. The accuracy went to hell. Before I was using just one damp (saliva) swab and 2 dry swabs on both sides. With no wind it was close to bullet inside another bullet. With the wetter method I was lucky to get 4 inches.

So am I to assume it's the sabots that don't like the wetness left over from the wetter swabs?

I've seen the ads for buckhorn powder. Something about not having to clean between shots. My "aim" is to get the best shot I can when hunting, and I'll probably only get one shot. So if I can shoot 20 times without cleaning really doesn't help. Cleaning 777 with plain water does help as I don't need chemicals around. I can tell just by how hard a bullet gets loaded how accurate it will be. If the bullet goes down easily, I might as well shoot it in the air. But if it goes down hard, it will be dead nuts on. And, when I changed my cleaning procedures, the first thing I noticed was that the bullets load easier, but not without some resistance.

Funny thing happened on the range. It rained off and off. So I opened the tailgate of my Exploder to give me a dry environment for both my blackpowder and pistol shooting. After about 3 hours I put everything away and found out I had a low battery and it wouldn't start. I probably shot an extra $30 worth of smoke waiting for someone to get off work and drive to the country to give me a jump start. No one else was shooting because of the on and off rain and mist.

I have both Blackhorn 209 and 777. For accuracy, energy, and fps they are about even. That being said we need to look at other factors. 777 requires cleaning after every shot or no accuraccy. 1 wet patch and 2 dry. It also develops a crud ring near the seating point that keeps moving the bullet up the barrel. You may have what I call clean barrel syndrome. Some rifles will fire more accurately if the barrel is fouled. If that is the case fire a squib load of 30-40 grains bewfore you start to shoot. I don't even use a bullet, just powder and a sabot seated on top of it. I have shot 45-50 loads using Blackhorn 209 with out cleaning and had no loss of accuracy. To clean after "209" just use your favorite rifle cleaning solvent, like Hoppe's nitro powder solvent, or whatever. DO NOT USE WATER ON 209!!!!!! As you might have guessed I strongly recommend Blackhorn 209. I keep a couple of pounds of 777 on hand just in case I can not get 209, but that does not seem to be a problem now. Early on it was hard to find.

Thanks. I'll give it a try. Now they always say to drop 777 15%. So should I increase my load from 112 to 130 grains of 209? What about primers. I've used the Winchester 209 shotgun primers with the 777. What do I need for the 209?

I've had my problems with the crud ring and I measure the loaded bullet each and every time very closely. Early on I had a couple that wouldn't seat by well over an inch. I took the breech plug out, threw away the powder and pushed the bullet out backwards. I kept the bullet but replaced the sabot. Cleaning the rifle after shooting I can REALLY feel the crud ring. That's why I tried the wetter cleaning patches because it really disolved the crud ring.

So I don't really need to clean at all after shooting the 209? If I do, would it help or hurt? When you say shoot a squib load, is that for 209 also? I used to shoot two primers before I'd shoot the 777.

Hey Iowafarmboy, I don't get a "crud ring" with American Pioneer Powder. I don't have to clean after every shot. In fact I can shoot it 10 times or more if I feel like it and clean up is with a little soap and water. I get good velocity and accuracy from it. You also don't use any kind of "bore butter" for lubrication.

I would try the primers first and see how you get along with that and if it works ok, use it, if not go with the squib load. Any 209 shotgun primer will work but make sure they are shotgun primers and not blackpowder or muzzleloader primers. Only 209 shotgun primers will be hot enough to give ignition.
As for cleaning, you will have to do what works for you, but I will reiterate that I have fired 45-50 loads without cleaning and no loss of accuracy. You may do more or less, but eventually you will have to clean your rifle. You just don't have to clean as much because 209 DOES NOT DRAW MOISTURE! I will usually clean my weapon everytime I use so it goes into storage all ready for the next time, but sometimes it may have to wait a day or two. When that happens 209 takes out the worry factor.
It used to be clean everday before you put away!!!!!
By the way my favorite load is 100 grain 209, a Remington 209 primer and a 250 gr sabot. You can check and see what the maker says for a max load for your rifle, but you should not need it for deer.

been using the .25 ACP case with CCI small rifle magnum primers. .50 H&R Huntsman, .451 255 gr, black sabot, 100 gr T7 pellets.(2). accuracy is acceptable. just under 2MOA. no crud ring formation with this load. Last year this load took 2 deer, one 100 lb doe and one about 130lb., 75 yd. 90 yd. (just stepped off) and one 15lb turkey. in VA. there is a season overlap for a few days. this combo, "works for me"

I think each one of us has to find a load that we are comfortable with that works for our particular weapon. It can take a lot of shooting!!!

Since every place in my area carries 250 grain bullets, I started with them. These are called "easy load" with the yellow sabots and the blue tip. I started at 80 grains 777 and worked to 100 at 75 yard targets. Never found anything I would call acceptable. I switched to 300 grain and my problems went away. My barrel is 28 inches long, if that can make a difference. I have no clue why it made a difference unless it's the 300 grain bullets load a little harder in my barrel, and the harder they load, it seems to get better accuracy. In my area, there is only one place 30 miles away that carries the 300 grain bullets, so if I can get good accuracy with a 250 I would switch to that in time.

But the crud ring with 777 really drove me crazy. And trying to get the cleaning exactly the same takes away my confidence. So I'm going to give Blackhorn 209 a try. Since I have a supply of 300 grain bullets I'll go with them first. So if the Blackhorn powder gives me what I had with 777, I'll stay with it.

The easy load sabot is not as accurate becuase it loses gas and pressure .
The tighter sabot does not let the gas go by it, therefore it is more consistent and more accurate. Each weapon has its own preference. I have one Knight that uses a TC bullet and gives me fantastic accuracy. The other one uses a Barnes bullet.

I tried the Blackhorn 209 powder. My shotgun primers worked just fine. As expected, the ez-load sabots were all over the place. If a bullet loaded hard, it seemed to go high. If a bullet loaded easy, it seemed to be low.

I did have a small shock when I saw how little powder was actually in the container. The 777 powder container held 1 pound and the 209 powder had 10 ounces, for about the same price. The 209 seemed to produce noticeably more kick when fired. No cleaning was needed between shots. I bought different sabot / bullets that are not easy load and will try them this weekend. My local store has a poor selection.

If this bullet does no better, I will buy something off the internet to try. If push comes to shove and deer season is here before I find another combination that works with the 209, I can always go back to my original 777 / bullet / cleaning combination.

I have used Thompson Center Shockwaves, Barnes, and Parker productions and gotten along well with all of them. Like I say, you have to find what your rifle likes. There are a quite a few good bullets out there, you just have to find one doe you!!! I would throw out any projectile that did not pull a 2-3 inch group at 100 yds and, hopefully you will do better than that!!!