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Beginner's 'luck'....
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:

As far as the gun, It’s possible some unburned powder or residue could have caused a bind.

If you really think you’ve got a timing issue, it’s best to have it looked over by a pistolsmith.

Don’t know if you understand this or not, but velocity is not based upon pressure alone.
Look at the load data I’ve posted.
240 gr. NOS JHP
H110 is listed at 36,200 cup @ 1522 FPS
Universal is listed at 38,200 cup @ 1246 FPS

Universal is 276 FPS slower but has a cup pressure of 2,000 more.



I like the crud theory- good point and never thought of that (told ya I don't know it all). It first did it 3rd cylinder-full into my firing. Good point and I'll watch for that.
And as stated, I'm thinking if it was recoil/timing related it prolly woulda reared it's head during the rapid fire I did in the end IMHO, and, again- could be wrong there. It got a good scrub when it got home, as always. I have'nt mic'd the throats and just now though of that. If the OAL is too long, and the throats are tightish....hmmmm.

Data- I used their actual manual and the start load, actually, a smidge under the start load.
The data you posted here is max load. But, I understand pressure, issues therin etc. and respect same. That's why I inspected the cases so closely. I've seen much, much flatter and flowed primers from factory stuff. Not to mention that hunk of brass from the S&W round I pulled down. I need to post a pic of that if I can find it. Wow. Laughing Wonder what kinda boomer that woulda been with a chunk of metal taking up space like that? Mad
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

If the back of the chamber is too tight on the case heads and dragging just slightly then rapid fire would tend to force the cylinder into lock-up. If you used double action with a slow trigger then any drag would tend to keep it from going into cylinder lock-up.
I doubt the Ruger is too tight but a bent or thick rim is not out of the question.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

Thank you Paul, good info.

Pop thought it was crud under the "star" or crud in general. Never had a revolver not function before. Really caught me off gaurd and blew my groove for a few, esp since nothing was blatently obvious.

Press was snugged, longish rounds were re-done, got my table top last night and the re-load table project starts this weekend- should be a nice sano piece at about 150lbs, my Plinkster shipped, going to the Ranges tomorrow to try some of these loads in the 10.5" SBH on some little steel critters that are running amok out past the paper frames. Smile

All's right with the world again. Joy!

'Cept I'm losing sleep over some lever-actions.





Lessee- pay bills, buy gun, pay bills, buy gun.... hmmmm...what to do. Very Happy
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damianss
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

If your new to reloading first thing i would check with the issue you are having is to see if the primers are seated fully. You never notice it in most semis but let one get out just a tad on a revolver and your cylinder is gonna drag. One the case is fired the brass pushes back and seats the primer. This has happened to me before so i always make sure i do a good job seating them when loading for a revolver. Also your load data you are using is fine. You are not gonna KB a modern gun with book loads. You cant get enough H-110 in a case with a bullet to blow one up, sure you can overpressure the gun but its not gonna go boom on you. There is more danger from h-110 downloading causeing detonation than danger from overloading. Just make sure you dont go lower than say 20 grs with the h-110 you will be fine.
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

Thanks Damian- good advice for sure.

I was checking each case for +P and mashed primers. I don't recall any mis-seated ones but that is an excellent point. I don't mind going back over them with more magnafication (cant have enough magnafication with me).

I also like the fact the H-110 fills the case making spot checks easy. A double charge would be a mess. You also answered my question as to lowest volume load. I've read about detonation from a short-fill. I've been doing a lot of reading as a matter of fact, asking questions and hungry for info.

Slow and steady, no hurries.

*

Changed plans mid-stream for the reloading 'bench'. It's now a reloading 'shelf' due to space issues. I tumble the brass in the back bathroom in my condo, no one can hear it back there, 'cept maybe the neighbors. Not sure what they think of that though. Laughing

(3) Super HD angle-brackets lagged to wall studs, heavy laminated top with white laminate, super-simple and just enough room for presses, trimmer, safety scale etc... Mocked it all up, then tore it all down last night and starting finishing touches and millwork tonight. 14" x 48". Solid as a 10-ton rock. No wiggle or wobble. (again- I live alone so no one is near this stuff and supplies are locked up elsewhere in my safe.)


Pics coming soon of the custom 'Urban Uber-Reloading Shelf'.

Razz
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ElyBoy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

Stovepipe,

I really don't want to butt in on your fun, and rain on your parade, but if I have a load that is so hot, that I have to look at my primers etc., I don't use that load.
Using H110 for range use is not cool.
This is a Hot hunting load.
Now, putting a beginner handloader with H110, and on top of that, loading so hot as to even worry about the primers is REALLY not cool.

I don't know if you shoot with other folks, but doing what you are doing, I would shoot alone without the chance of "collateral" damage to other shooters.

There--I said my piece--

Sorry Stovepipe, I just had to let you know how I see this.
You are stepping into a Joe Gibbs Cup Car, instead of learning to drive with a 4 cylinder Corsica.
I just hope that you don't hit the wall in turn 1.

Good luck,

Eric

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

Copy and thanks. I appreiciate your concern and it is well taken.

I am not 'worried' about the primers, per say. But I am checking for signs of High Pressure etc. I'm checking for everything and being and careful as possible, as I would with any load, regardless of the recipe.

I was testing these alone within the confines of a stall.

I won't pretend to be an expert on reloading. That is why I am single-stage relaoding and checking along the way paying particular attention to the charge. And, coming here for advice and comments from more experienced individuals.

The manuals I've read say start at least 10% below book max. That's 22.5gr. I'm barely at or just under 23gr with this batch. And again- for indoor use, I may try a few at 22gr even and see how that works, and, looks in the case. I don't want short filled cases for a couple of reasons.

I appreciate your comments and advice and am not above critisism.

-kevin.
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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:36 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

Kevin, did you figure it out yet? One thing I'd suggest is, should it happen again, look carefully with a bright light to see if you can tell where the cases are touching the frame. I was wondering if you might have a primer backing out (loose pocket) but it seems like that wouldn't happen on the third cylinder-full repeatably.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

I went through all my live rounds last night. I only found one primer that was a tad high (not flush). I rejected it and will pull the bullet.

I also checked the face of the recoil-gaurd and the head's of the cases. Any angles on the face are smoothed w/o any snag points (not that something won't catch) and none of the heads were bent, imprinted or mashed. They all come out of the chambers easy or un-aided.
The cases were in good shape, once fired, and I don't dump on the ground- I use a container to catch my cases.

I may have just had some crud under the star or something. The condition was erratic, did it twice that I recall and took untill the 3rd cylinder to surface.
I always clean my guns to remove oil from bore, chambers etc. before I shoot. I may have missed something during that proceedure or got something loged somewhere.
The lane I was is not the brightest lit, and, I can't take it home or off the range loaded so....I was lucky it came open easy and I didn't have to force it. The exact cause is a guess for me.

I don't think it was the gun, as, it ripped off six just fine before I ended my session. I'm bringing a flashlight and magnafying glass and if it sticks again I'll hopefully be able to narrow it down some.
I'm sure it was something I did wrong. Crud, an offending round or a combo of errors.

Which is why I am looking forward to finally getting all of my own gear at my place. No offence to Pop and thank's for letting me do this at his place, learn a lot and ask questions. But there's nothing like 'home base' and setting it all up they way I like etc... Sorry if this is getting long in the tooth, guys, and for making a mountain out of a mole-hill.
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damianss
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

Ok here is a question for you guys here that keep saying why do you want this "Hot" load it will wear your gun out from all the pressure etc. If you look at the manual data that was posted the psi for h-110 was not as high as some of the other loadings- this being the case then wouldnt the load for lets say hp-38 having a higher peak pressure wear your gun faster than a lower pressure h-110 load. and lets say for instance your powder measure drops 2 extra gains of powder for whatever reason would you rather drop 2 extra gains of hp-38 or 2 extra gains of h-110? to me i think the h-110 is fine for a beginner it in no way is a "hot " load and it isnt going to loosen your gun up any more than any other loads 38k psi is 38k psi any way you look at it. So stovepipe if i were you id go with what powder i wanted to use go by the manual and what you are checking for is all the things you should check for.
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

Exactly- it matters little what I make a major blunder with. I own it either way.

And w/ 6gr of 231, at 50y, in a 4" bbl offhand being a tack-driver is beyond my abilities. That's roughly half the start load. I'd run out of sight adjustment and 100y, much less 200y, w/ my 10.5" bbl.
As far as accuracy, the snubby is right on, off-hand and rested w/ this load.

I shoot Magnums because they are Magnums. Dumbing it down to half the charge makes no sense, to me at least. I have access to .44 Spl's if I want to shoot and load for those.
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ElyBoy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

In 40 years of reloading, I have NEVER shot a reload of mine that was 2gr off from what I wanted.
WHY????
I will keep dropping and measuring until I get the EXACT same drop at least five times.
Then I will go five rounds, and then recheck.
Humidity and other things will change your powder drops even with the best dropper.
As an example, reloading for my .45ACP, using a 200gr LSWC, I will load 4.8gr of W-231 powder.
You guys might not be set up to drop such a light amount of powder with such a standard type of powder, but I hit the X ring 100% of the time at 25 yards with this load.
Getting back to my point.
I may be getting consistent drops of 4.8gr. Then, I leave the table for a while and come back. Before I do any more reloading, I will check my drop, and 99% of the time, the drop will be off, and I have to start from scratch again.

Going back to my original point, a real, seasoned reloading guy, will NEVER have a reloaded bullet off by 2gr.

Remember what Forest Gump said guys: "Stupid is, as Stupid Does"
These posts on handloading are starting to sound exactly like a Forest Gump movie.

As a Rangemaster, if I knew that a guy was doing this with his reloads, I would eject him off of my range and only allow him in the future to shoot factory ammo only.

Un-stink'en-believable

Eric

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Vince
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:33 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

stovepipe wrote:
Exactly- it matters little what I make a major blunder with. I own it either way.

I shoot Magnums because they are Magnums. Dumbing it down to half the charge makes no sense, to me at least. I have access to .44 Spl's if I want to shoot and load for those.

Pipes....hurry slowly mate. Don't bust a gut to get maximum loads through your "babies". That will come soon enough. Nothing wrong with putting some gentler loads through them initially...be good for you too mate.

Now...as for MAGNUM loads...again...make haste slowly.

I went crazy with my .357 Mag years ago. My loads were within the parameters of the reloading manuals, and the velocities were again within the parameters.

However, my S&W Model 19 K Frame was not up to a fairly solid diet of EarShplittenLoudenBoomers. Surprised Luckily I didn't damage the frame, but I did manage to split the forcing cone at the bottom, which oddly enough bound up the cylinder and stopped it from turning...sound familiar? wtf Confused

I have never used H110, but it is on a par (within 5%) of the powder I did use for Magnum loads...ADI AR2205. The data for that powder is below:

Bullet 240
Powder AR2205
Barrel 8.275"
Start Load 22.0
FPS 1300
Pressure 28400 cup
Max Load 24.0
FPS 1460
Pressure 36100 cup

WW296 is also on a par with these two powders and it is NOT a powder you load down, so I would treat H110 the same...it is a maximum charge powder.

Start slowly mate and build up to your magnum load. You may even find that your load of choice will be a reduced load anyway. That is what usually happens.

Cheers, Vince

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

Didn't I read somplace that you shouldn't reduce H110 loads too much below max? Something about 3%? I'm looking for that info but haven't found it yet.

Ah!! Hodgdon's website!

"For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%. "

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'.... Reply with quote

damianss wrote:
Just make sure you dont go lower than say 20 grs with the h-110 you will be fine.

Yea !!! you caught that too Pumpkin !!!
That is just over a 16.5% reduction.

Don't worry, they got "testing equipment" to go along with their unconventional loads !!!

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