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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5002 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:57 am Post subject: Twist rates and the Greenhill formula |
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I really wasn't sure whether to put this here or under "Gun and Firearms Discussions" but I figured that handloaders would be more likely to use the information.
I'm sure we've covered this before on this website but I've noticed some recent discussions on twist rates so I thought I'd add a refresher on the Greenhill formula. The formula was developed sometime in the late 1800s by Sir Alfred Greenhill, was a professor of mathmatics at the Woolrich Military Academy for British artillery officers.
This formula isn't a hard and fast rule because of differences in bullet shapes and velocities. However, it will get you into an acceptable range for twist. For velocities over 2000 ft/sec you can use a little slower twist and again for over 3000 ft/sec a little slower yet.
The formula is >> Twist = (150 * bullet-diamter) / (bullet-length / bullet-diameter)
As an example, I grabbed a Sierra 0.224" diameter, 63 grain Semi-pointed bullet off the shelf. The length of this bullet is 0.767".
Twist = (150 * 0.224) / (0.767 / 0.224)
= (33.6) / (3.424)
= 9.813
By the way, this bullet has given me my best group yet from my DPMS "Lo Pro Classic" AR-15 with a 1-in-9" twist.
There is a fuller explanation, along with more on bullet stability, in "Understanding Firearm Ballistics" by Robert Rinker.
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15718 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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SingleShotLover Super Member
Joined: Dec 26, 2007 Posts: 1005 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Twist rates and the Greenhill formula |
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Another interesting formula to assist in determining optimum twist rate is as follows:
180 divided by the length of the bullet in calibers multiplied by the bullet diameter.
Example: If a Hornady 55 grain 22-caliber SP (.224 caliber) bullet is .701" long
.701 (length) / .224 (diameter) = 3.129 (length of bullet in calibers)
180 / 3.129 = 57.53
57.53 X .224 = 12.89" (1 turn in 12.9 inches)
For anticipated velocities under 3,000 fps, the factor of 150 is usually more accurate than the factor of 180.
Not sure who the original author of this one was, but it's another way of getting to the same point. It's fun just playing with the numbers.
_________________ If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!
The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.
SSL |
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chambered221 Super Member
Joined: Aug 17, 2007 Posts: 3455 Location: Lost for good !!!
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Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Twist rates and the Greenhill formula |
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SSL, This is a variation of the Greenhill formula.
It’s been determined that substituting 180 in place of 150 in the equation.
Thus taking into account modern day velocities.
_________________ Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington |
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PaulS Super Member
Joined: Feb 18, 2006 Posts: 4330 Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:48 am Post subject: Re: Twist rates and the Greenhill formula |
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Rather than saying these formulas find the optimum twist rate it should be the "Minimum" twist rate. More twist is always better than less.
_________________ Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads |
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SingleShotLover Super Member
Joined: Dec 26, 2007 Posts: 1005 Location: Illinois
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jeh7mmmag Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2006 Posts: 223 Location: DFW, TX.
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Twist rates and the Greenhill formula |
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Pumpkin slinger
Thanks, Alway have a problem findin g the lenght of bullets.
Do you have any more source for bullet lenght.
James
_________________ mypva.org/
DAV
VNE USS LEX CVT-16 BLUE GHOST V2 CATS ABE-2 |
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5002 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Twist rates and the Greenhill formula |
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James, some websites for bullet manufacturers list the length but not many. I just measured what I had onhand. It sure would be nice if more listed it! In fact, maybe an email campaign is in order.
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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jeh7mmmag Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2006 Posts: 223 Location: DFW, TX.
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:08 am Post subject: Re: Twist rates and the Greenhill formula |
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Good deal. I will see what I can get out of Sierra regarding length
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VNE USS LEX CVT-16 BLUE GHOST V2 CATS ABE-2 |
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jeh7mmmag Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2006 Posts: 223 Location: DFW, TX.
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:22 am Post subject: Re: Twist rates and the Greenhill formula |
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Look what I found. Looks like a pretty good listing.
www.shootforum.com/for...letdb.html
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DAV
VNE USS LEX CVT-16 BLUE GHOST V2 CATS ABE-2 |
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5002 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Twist rates and the Greenhill formula |
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Thanks James! Great resource!
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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