HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: abc25af
New Today: 1
New Yesterday: 1
Overall: 12721

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 88
BOT: 1
Total: 89
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Your Account
03: Forums
04: Forums
05: Forums
06: Forums
07: Home
08: Home
09: Forums
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Home
13: Forums
14: Home
15: Forums
16: Home
17: Home
18: Forums
19: News
20: Forums
21: Your Account
22: Forums
23: Forums
24: Forums
25: Forums
26: Forums
27: Home
28: Forums
29: Home
30: Forums
31: Forums
32: Forums
33: Forums
34: Forums
35: Your Account
36: Forums
37: Forums
38: Forums
39: Forums
40: Forums
41: Your Account
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Forums
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Your Account
48: Forums
49: Photo Albums
50: Forums
51: Forums
52: Your Account
53: Forums
54: Forums
55: Your Account
56: Forums
57: Forums
58: Forums
59: Forums
60: Forums
61: Forums
62: Forums
63: Forums
64: Forums
65: Home
66: Forums
67: Home
68: Home
69: Forums
70: Forums
71: Forums
72: Home
73: Forums
74: Home
75: Forums
76: Forums
77: Forums
78: Forums
79: Forums
80: Forums
81: Forums
82: Forums
83: Forums
84: Forums
85: Forums
86: Home
87: Forums
88: Forums
  BOT:
01: Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 305
 Pictures: 2372
  · Views: 553530
  · Votes: 1312
  · Comments: 86
 

Support our Advertisers

Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing?
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
Go to page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Handloader
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

Post WWII hunters transitioned to bolt action rifles and soon thereafter was the beginnings of the magnum phase which has continued into the absurd arena of hypervelocity offerings readily available today. Touted for long range shooting and extraordinary killing power the Ultra Magnums serve to highlight the irony of hunting rounds and killing game in that in some cases they are less effective, harder to shoot, cost more in ammo and, when the trigger is pulled, they tend to kill on both ends. Are we seeing an awakening on the part of the general public? I think so.

Killing game is a matter of disrupting vital organs and/or smashing bones. The vast majority of game is killed under 100 yards. The hypervelocity rounds are truly challenged in the short distance shooting and require bullets of much heavier construction to withstand the impact forces and penetration resistence they encounter, often leaving jellied bloodshot meat disproportionate to the force needed to humanely kill something. For truly long range shooting, few hunters have the quality of rifle and the experience of shooting needed to assess distance accurately and place a killing shot under widely variable conditions (wind, temperature, elevation, etc). At 300 yards the standard hunting cartridges are just as lethal and made even more useable owing to the advances in bullet technology.

Resurgent cartridges like the 45-70 are chosen in modern lever or single shot guns because they have been "rediscovered" and do an exceptional job in normal hunting conditions and ranges. Let's not forget the lowly 30-30 that still puts more venison on the table than virtually any other cartridge and who's popularity has also seen increases, based on die and rifle sales.

While Roy Weatherby promoted the killing effect of hydrastatic shock that purportedly would increase the size of the killing zone, field data shows his cartridges no more effective than their plebian counterparts. IOW a good shot kills and a bad shot is just a bad shot.

More evidence accumulates with hunting revolvers in which cast bullets at moderate velocities often outpenetrate their higher velocity jacketed or cast counterparts. Afterall, if you have a big bore revolver, how much expansion beyond bore size is really necessary or effective?

Marketing is one of the aspects of sales. Touting the new and the improved is a proven formula for added sales, however, experience shows that new is not always better. IMO, that applies to todays cartridges, however, YMMV. Your thoughts?
Back to top
View user's profile
roklok
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 608
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:19 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

My favorite big game killer is a 250 grain .35 caliber Nosler Partition at 2542 FPS muzzle velocity. I have shot lengthwise through a good sized grizzly with this bullet. I consider myself a bit of a gun nut, having many more rifles than I need (I own three 35 Whelens), but have never been tempted by any magnum cartridge, let alone the new magnums. For longer range hunting for sheep and such I turn to the good old 270 Winchester. I am getting 3200 FPS with 130 grain SST. NO super magnum cartridge gives any practical advantage in long range trajectory over this load.
Back to top
View user's profile
ElyBoy
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 1541
Location: Forest Lake Minnesota

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

As I've said here before, Handloader, my Dad knew Roy Weatherby, and had no use for him or his wildcat loads.

You hit the argument straight on the mark with velocity and killing power.
All of my reloads that I have worked up, with the exception of my .300WinMag, are on the lower scales for velocity.
High velocity will either penetrate too fast, and not expand, or, blow up on contact.
More moderate loads offer better expansion and thus, better killing power.
I have my 45/70 400gr loads shooting at 1660fps, which is as fast as I care to shoot for good expansion of my flat point bullets.

Eric

_________________
NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
DNR Certified Firearms Safety Instructor
NRA Life Member
Back to top
View user's profile
fireball 3
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jan 28, 2007
Posts: 393
Location: northern calif

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

Very Happy I personally have built a mag rifle,just because I could. It sits in the cabinet.The go to guns for me in all around hunting is my marlin 336w in 30/30 or my 8mm-06 wildcat.The 8-06 is for any target past 150 yds. The marlin even does a fine job on wild boar here in Ca. I belive too that highest velocity is'nt always the best..Accuracy is mainly what counts..just my .035 cents worth.,,Dave Cool

_________________
if at first you don't succeed, take a nap, and try
tomorrow. can't hurt!
Back to top
View user's profile Yahoo Messenger
Bushmaster
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jun 12, 2005
Posts: 10708
Location: Ava, Missouri

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

The magnum was invented for those who never mastered the art of "hunting". Who would rather shot game from a distance rather then learn how to use stealth, anticipate where the game will reapear and the art of tracking. My Ruger .357 magnum, Winchester .30 WCF and my Browning .30-06 are about all I need... Smile

_________________
I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...

DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
Back to top
View user's profile
woods
Member
Member


Joined: Oct 15, 2005
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

Velocity can decrease penetration and usually does





I like to push a heavy for caliber bullet (ex. 200 gr 30 caliber, 160 gr 7mm or 140 gr 6.5mm) between 2900 and 3100 fps muzzle velocity figuring that it will slow down by impact to a decent velocity where the bullet can perform as intended. The exception would be varmint calibers where you want it to explode.

Even magnums like the 300 win mag can perform well with appropriate bullets like the 200 gr Accubonds at 2900 fps. It really chaps my a$$ when shooters start talking about using 150 gr or even 130 gr bullets in the 300 win mag.

JMO

_________________
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians
Back to top
View user's profile
Glenn1022
Member
Member


Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 45
Location: NC Foothills

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

I use a 7mm08 (140gr 2900fps) or 308 (150gr 2700fps) for the 100yd+ shots.
Use a 30-30 (factory loads) up to 100yd range.
Velocity for me is what gives me my best groups and knowing what type of environment I will be hunting game in. May be fields or heavy wooded areas. Using my 7mm08 for those 30yd shots is overkill for me but has happened. They normally punch through without expanding and I have to track more.
I see allot of people using 300win mags and hunting stands that offer at most a 50yd shot....now that is way too much gun for that type of situation.
Thats my two cents worth Deal if its worth that.
Back to top
View user's profile
slipshot
Member
Member


Joined: Sep 06, 2008
Posts: 37
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

Well some folks arn't "gun nuts" like us and only own 1 centerfire. Therfore forced to use it to fit there every need. I personally don't shoot a gun that I can only shoot out to a 100 yds.....I have a 30-30 but its a relic and never gets out of the gun case. Don't own a magnum either since I take little pleasure in being knocked out the chair when it goes off. I guess if I lived were I could hunt larger critters I would have one but here in Texas the "Everything is Bigger" dosn't apply to deer LOL.
Shot placement and bullet selection is the key........IMO
Back to top
View user's profile
hunterjoe21
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 30, 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Billings, Montana

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

slipshot wrote:
Well some folks arn't "gun nuts" like us and only own 1 centerfire. Therfore forced to use it to fit there every need. I personally don't shoot a gun that I can only shoot out to a 100 yds.....I have a 30-30 but its a relic and never gets out of the gun case. Don't own a magnum either since I take little pleasure in being knocked out the chair when it goes off. I guess if I lived were I could hunt larger critters I would have one but here in Texas the "Everything is Bigger" dosn't apply to deer LOL.
Shot placement and bullet selection is the key........IMO

Some folks ARE gun nuts AND own only 1 centerfire. When did the number of guns that you own start to determine the level of participation in the sport? I happen to live in a "shotgun only" state, does that disqualify me as a "gun nut"???

I happen to shoot 4 different CF chamberings. Do I qualify as a gun nut now?? Even though I don't hunt big game with them??

I kill "stuff" with a shotgun and a muzzleloader. Perhaps I can suggest that I'm more of a gun nut than you, simply based on the fact that I need to get closer, and know the limitations of the guns I'm allowed to use....

_________________
My 1911 is more effective than your 911.


Last edited by hunterjoe21 on Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
roklok
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 608
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

There is a difference in being a "gun nut" and a sportsman or hunter. One of the best deer hunters I know, my dad, owns one centerfire rifle, a Winchester 94 30-30. He is not a gun nut but sure is a hunter. I don't think anyone is implying that you are not dedicated if you only own one rifle.
Back to top
View user's profile
hunterjoe21
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 30, 2007
Posts: 1459
Location: Billings, Montana

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

Sorry, guess I was kinda cranky back then....

_________________
My 1911 is more effective than your 911.
Back to top
View user's profile
slipshot
Member
Member


Joined: Sep 06, 2008
Posts: 37
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

Thanks Roklok.....That was the point I was trying to make. If I only had a sling shot I would try and figure out how to hunt with it because I love being out hunting.
Back to top
View user's profile
Bushmaster
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jun 12, 2005
Posts: 10708
Location: Ava, Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:53 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

Whew...Thought we were going to have call in the dogs on this one. Thanks guys for getting it under control. I'm a "hunter" with two rifles. But I'm a "gun nut" when it comes to pistols and revolvers. Smile

You can be both... Very Happy

_________________
I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...

DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
Back to top
View user's profile
skb2706
Member
Member


Joined: Apr 10, 2006
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

Personally I like hunting with a .300 Win mag. I have lots of others but the Win mag does everything well. Its only too much gun if you don't know how to shoot.
Put me on the side of a mountain staring at a 700 lb. bull elk, shot 300 yds.plus and I'll take the Win mag over anything else I have.
Back to top
View user's profile
Vince
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 14037
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:56 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity, Too Much of A good Thing? Reply with quote

I used to be a velocity chaser...only because I believed that the faster it went...the harder it would hit...a typical misnomer of the inexperienced. I have since learned that this attitude is a damn long way from the truth.

A 150gn bullet out of my Mod 94 30.30 doing modest to mediocre speeds will happily "push" through anything it hits, and certainly does the job on any game I am likely to encounter here in aussie...with the exception of buffalo. An 80gn bullet in my .243, again not breaking any speed records is the same...does tyhe job more than adequately on the game I hunt.

Now...gun nuts...yep...I fit the bill perfectly...guns, I love 'em. I have my four rimfires, two centrefires and my 12g shotgun, but in reality being a gun nut is a state of mind...its a bit like being a car nut...you don't need to own half a dozen cars...just love 'em for what they are. Soooo, I reckon each and every one of us here is a gun nut in his own right.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Gun & Firearm Discussions
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Advertisements
 


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by Dizfunkshunal :.