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357 mag. for deer??
Big Game Hunting topics that dont fit other categories
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squirrelbait
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:10 pm    Post subject: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

OK, I just read thru the entire string of responses to "Knock Down Power" subject. I have a win94-ae in 30-30 that we will be using next week. I am really wanting to trade it in for win or marlin 94 in 357 mag. Why? Well in NH shots seldom get over 75 yards. Althought, and Dillon this goes to you, my Daughter just got her first deer two weeks ago during the Youth Week-end. She is 15 and I am not sure who is more proud me or her. She got it with a 243 at 160yards. Deer went about 60yds. Never bled thru the entrance hole..no exit it was a quarter away shot from the liver thru the lungs into off-side shoulder. That being said, because I stress to my kids one shot one kill and know your limits, anything wrong with the 357? Seems pretty close ballistically to the 30-30. Big reason is cost of practice and the versitility of the cartridge.
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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

Howdy. That would be a fine deer caliber (imo), like you said knowing it's limits. It has enough bullet weight it should have decent velocity out of a rifle barrel i think it would do fine.
JOE

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7mmREMMAG
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

Party ......Congrats to your daughter squirrelbait. 160 yards good shot........ Sniper

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

Its great when a family member gets their first big game animal. Getting youth involved in hunting is critical to hunting's future. Congratulations!

Certainly a 357 Magnum from a rifle or carbine can kill deer, however, it carries some limitations. Some of the heavier bullets from Nosler or Barnes will give the best possible performance which could be essential if the shot is taken at a less than perfect angle. Knowing those limitations and passing on shots that could be made with more suitable cartridges should be guidelines for taking game.
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Flint54
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:38 am    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

Cool Very Happy Great job for your daughter!!!

I would like to add a bit on the .357 also.

Using a .357 for deer is very feasible but you have to use it within it’s limitations. I am speaking from experience as it is one that I have used to harvest a total of 11 whitetails so far. You have to be very selective in taking your shots and above all you need to use proper ammunition. Forget about almost all hollowpoints period. I have used a total of only 3 bullets for handloading that have passed my testing for loading for whitetails & what I consider medium sized game. They are the Nosler 180gr Handgun Partition and 2 hardcast lead marketed by Cast Performance, a 160gr WFN and their 180gr WFN. The “ONLY” Factory Load that I have used is the “Deer Stopper” from Georgia Arms. This load is a 158gr at 1475fps. I spoke with them and they use a canister grade powder from Winchester that is a bit slower than WW296 and I will state that 296 cannot be used to “Safely” reach this level. They developed this load to market a .357 Magnum Load that would pass the Georgia requirements for retained energy from a handgun. I have taken 4 with this load and have had complete pass throughs on broadside shots through the lungs/heart area.

I have been using handguns for over 25 years for hunting and my first handgun deer was taken in Michigan in 1978 from @10 yards with a .357 Magnum S&W Model 19. At this point over 60% of my medium game hunting is done with handguns.

I must stress that this caliber is not for the inexperienced, you need to be able to pass up shots that do not give you a clear path through the lungs/heart area, it is not a very great penetrating round and will be stopped very quickly in dense muscle tissue or organs. This is why you need to be very selective in your shots.

In compairson with the 30-30 it will hardly generate half of the energy, and that is right at the muzzle. Get out to 25 yards and it is way behind! This includes carbine length barrels.

The .357 is a good round for those experienced enough to limit their shots to a good broadside and also under 50 yards. This cartridge is NOT for the young & inexperienced, if they do use it you will more than likely wound your quarry and never recover it. Please be ethical and cleanly take you game cleanly. Cool Cool
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squirrelbait
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

"This load is a 158gr at 1475fps. I spoke with them and they use a canister grade powder from Winchester that is a bit slower than WW296 and I will state that 296 cannot be used to “Safely” reach this level."

Flint54, if I were limited to the load you have I would not go out with it. I am guessing this is in a handgun and I do not have the skills to hunt with the load. I have looked at several source and have found that there are safe loads with much more energy. The table below would indicate that the BB 357 load has more energy at 200yds with a 18 1/2 inch barrel than the typical 357 pistol does at the muzzle. This is why I am considering the round. I can also shoot 38 plinkers and "squirrel" loads.....cheap.

(Point Blank is a wonderful tool by the way)

Buffalo Bore 357 Load Data(180 gr)
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 1850 fps 1368 fpe
25 yds 0.17 in 1775 fps 1259 fpe
50 yds 1.13 in 1703 fps 1159 fpe
75 yds 1.34 in 1633 fps 1066 fpe
100 yds 0.75 in 1565 fps 979 fpe
125 yds -0.72 in 1499 fps 898 fpe
150 yds -3.12 in 1436 fps 825 fpe
175 yds -6.64 in 1378 fps 759 fpe
200 yds -11.32 in 1323 fps 699 fpe

30-30 Hand loads(170 gr)
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 2150 fps 1745 fpe
25 yds 0.10 in 2087 fps 1643 fpe
50 yds 1.21 in 2024 fps 1546 fpe
75 yds 1.79 in 1963 fps 1454 fpe
100 yds 1.83 in 1902 fps 1365 fpe
125 yds 1.24 in 1843 fps 1282 fpe
150 yds 0.00 in 1786 fps 1204 fpe
175 yds -1.95 in 1730 fps 1129 fpe
200 yds -4.63 in 1675 fps 1059 fpe
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Crackshot
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

Limit your bullets to 180gr or heavyer (hard cast or quality jacketed) loaded to safe and accurate levels and you should not have any problem harvesting your deer out to 75 yds from a RIFLE IF (as was said) you limit your shots to broad side only, heart lung shots.
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squirrelbait
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

I appreciate the inputs. The reason I ask is that I obviously don't have a lot of field experience with deer size animals. We bow hunt also and shot placement is the primary concern. I just have read a lot about not using the 357 yet the numbers seem to indicate otherwise......again shot placement. If a 357 pistol is good at 25yds-----550 to 650 fpe at 1300-1400fps mv I get concerned when told more that this is not acceptable at 100yds.....or even more? I think I am over analyzing??
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Flint54
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:17 am    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

Cool You are correct about the Buffalo Bore round, I have used them but they are too $$$ for me so I load my own using the Cast Performance 180gr. I also have a Marlin carbine but I only get 1750fps average from my rifle. I have a 20" barrel for my Contender and it only averages 1730fps with the same load from Buffalo Bore. This only shows that each firearm is a law unto itself and that you can not rely on information printed from manufacturers. The Georgia Arms load from my GP100 averages 1490fps and from my Smith 586 I averaged 1460fps. These were uncharacteristic as they are almost on spot with published velocity, I was amazed! Shocked

One thing that most people don't understand are the different terminal effects that handgun (Standard Revolver/Ammunition) Hunters look for and need. Many think that they need a Jacketed bullet that expands, this is many times the wrong choice, a jacketed bullet will start to expand upon contact with the animal and will create a wound cavity that consists of both a permenant and temporary cavity (PWC or TWC). The most important is the PWC. The expanding bullet will initially create a large PWC but due to the way a bullet expands it will quickly shrink and then stop due to the bullet loosing it's velocity quickly as much of the initial energy was used in expanding the bullet. Here is where a hard cast bullet with a wide/large Metplat leaves an expanding bullet in the dust. The WFN has a large flat frontal area that when combined with the velocity creates a PWC proportionately larger than the actualsize of the flat frontal surface (Metplat). This effect along with this style of bullets ability to penetrate much more than an expanding bullet will create a Much Larger PWC and will almost always provide complete penetration. This is actually the best result as it creates a complete hole through the lungs of an animal and will allow them to completly colapse within a few seconds, this will drop your deer usually within feet from where it was hit, not yards.

Take a look at the Beartooth site, they have a great bunch of calculators for many items.

www.beartoothbullets.c.../index.htm

Beartooth Bullets provides the old LBT series of hardcast bullets, please note that some of these calculators are only for flat Metplat bullets, others are for anything.

I hope that my ramblings mase some sort of sense, what I have attempted to say is that I have had much better terminal results using hardcast bullets with a large Metplat than I have had with any expanding bullet, this is based on .357/.358 diameter bullets in .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum and .35 Remington (revolvers, Marlin & Contender) .41 Mag, .45 Long Colt and also in 45-70. It seems funny, the only .44 Mag I have is an old Ruger Semi Auto and I can't use lead bullets in it. I may have to get a lever in .44 Mag! Cool
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squirrelbait
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

Flint54, this why I joined the forum. It is great to get feedback from experience. Thanks for the insight. My challenge is to get more shoot on less ($) and still maintain the humane, clean kills. You inputs gives me a much better idea what to be looking for. There are different grades/hardness of cast bullets. I need to dig into brands and availability to reloaders.
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Flint54
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

Cool I'm glad that I can be of some assistance to others. That is what personal experience is for I believe. As far as hard cast I have found that even linotype when not used to go through heavy bone works extreemely well, the only problem with it is that it has a tendancy to shatter if a large heavy bone is hit due to it being brittle. When I cast my own I try to get in the area of 19 - 20 for hardness. Also use a good high quality lube and if you have the same luck as I you won't get any leading even up to 2200 fps. in most cases. One note, this is with a gas check bullet, without a gas check I limit my velocity to no more than 1300 fps. Cool
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longwalker
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

In my opinion the .357 Magnum is a fine round. As long as you recognise the limitations. My first two handgun deer were with a 357. Both went down hard. I was using 158 grain JHP bullets. I recovered both bullets.

The next spring I found a used Super Redhawk 44 Magnum and have used it since. I feel more confident with the 44, it gives me some more range and I have much better penetration with the larger bullets.

I think the 357 in a rifle will be a little like shooting pheasants with a 28 gauge. Nice light and plenty of power within it's range.

longwalker
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squirrelbait
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

Longwalker, I like the analigy. I used to hunt pheasants (grew up in Iowa) with my little 20ga double--a western fields special. My friends all went out with their rem. 1100 12ga. I got just as many.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:36 am    Post subject: Re: 357 mag. for deer?? Reply with quote

hmmm interesting post.
My old pig hunting buddy used a .357 magnum lever rifle and it was good for close pigs (bailed under 10 yrds) the bought ammo was either rifle (good) or pistol (not so good)
IMHO the 30/30 is much better gun all round.

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