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LEO Kills Fifth Victim
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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:29 pm    Post subject: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

Please read this article:

blog.cleveland.com/met..._abou.html

I've known Jim Simone since I was a little kid delivering his afternoon newspaper. He was then (30 something years ago) and still is an inspiration to everyone who knows him. A more dedicated officer has never been found in the CPD. He helped to keep us "little punks" (my words, not his) outta trouble, at a time when trouble was the most obvious choice.

The CPD will truly be without a hero when he leaves, although I suspect that they will need to carry him out before they walk him out.

I have a phone message in to his "desk" phone #, to offer support. Once we (my little brother was even more influenced by Jim) hear back, I'll let you know how things are for him.

The City has stopped taking calls or emails regarding this case, and for some reason the Cleveland Plain Dealer (www. cleveland.com) wont post anything I attempt to add to their "blog" site. Stupid liberal media.....

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

My comments finally went through on the "blog" site...

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Duce
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

God bless him and his family. Smile he left a good impresion on you. I am sure that was his intent and shows a good man.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:45 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

I don't know this particular cop or the circumstances of the shooting but I am willing to bet that he only did what he had to do. Anytime a cop fires his gun in the defense of himself or the public he has to undergo a rigorous process to establish justification. He puts himself at risk of life and limb every day on the job and then deals with the worst side of humanity day in and day out. I could never be a good cop and I salute all the good ones out there. When the ruling comes down I hope it is just.
I feel for both families but I feel more for the cop that has to use his gun. He has to live with each shooting - the perp got off easy.

Oh and the part about the perp being hooked on crack and going in for rehab.... Yep, for the enth time he has said that I bet. I was married to an addict for 13 years. That was 23 years ago and after going through rehab 3 times, losing a good job and having our kids divorce themselves from her, she is still a practicing addict.
Regards to both families and my heartfelt empathy for the cop.

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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:05 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

It sounds like he's a good cop by the article. If he hesitated because of what the media has said in the past he might be the one that was killed. I wish him luck. keep us posted on this Joe.
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tracker
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

It kind of is on my mind that if you don't want cops shooting at you, don't be out robbing banks. Officer Simone did his job, period. That guy was reaching for something in the truck? If it'd been a twelve gauge, the good citizen who gave Simone a lift might have wound up dead at his side, he didn't know and he didn't take a chance. Good for him.

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

The comments on the blog about the article showed us why there are those that support various candidates based on their world view and vision. I thought the newspaper article was reasonably written and seemed to offer a background to the officer without too much prejudice.

Like the majority of those that live in the real world, I salute the officer for his bravery and actions. I am disappointed at those that would try to ameliorate the pert's responsibility in this.
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FALPhil
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

Handloader wrote:
Like the majority of those that live in the real world, I salute the officer for his bravery and actions. I am disappointed at those that would try to ameliorate the pert's responsibility in this.

Not me.

In this case, the perp was unarmed. There is never a justification for government to take the lives of unarmed people without due process. Especially over such a piddling amount of money. You don't have to be brave to shoot an unarmed crack addict.

I imagine that this guy is a black-and-white hard ass. Because Simone "...couldn't tell what he was reaching for..." he made himself judge, jury, and executioner.

Sorry, but it smells fishy. Especially since there were four more. I'd like to understand the circumstances surrounding the other incidents.

Two of my beliefs were reinforced by the article: (1) the illegality of drugs causes more problems than it solves; and (2) law enforcement should not be a lifetime career.

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

Yours is an interesting reaction FALPhil and one shared by several that commented. Most shared a viewpoint, however, that since the guy robbed the bank and refused the officer's command to stop/surrender and reached for an object in the truck, that the officer's action was in the public interest and justified. Later, we learn the perp had a long record that only underscores the correctness of the officer's decision.

Officers enforce the law; they don't make the law. The law is clear in this case, a fleeing felon resisting arrest and a danger to the public at large. How is it that we are called upon by some to muster even a portion of empathy for the perp? To the contrary, good riddance, no tears. Job well done.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

FALPhil...I understand what you are saying mate....but I can also understand what others are saying.

I wouldn't be a Police Officer today for all the tea in China. They have one of the most thankless "damned if you do and damned if you don't" jobs. Police Officers I have known are now dead because of the "to hell with the law" attitude of criminals. Who can blame a Police Officer for being quick to defend himself with extreme prejudice.

Having said all of that, it does seem a little unusual that this particular Police Officer has been involved in so many shootings. However, not knowing the guy, or the circumstances involving each and every one of those shooting incidents, I am not in a position to comment or pass judgment. Maybe he is, as you say, a hard ass, but weren't all Police Officers years ago...and there wasn't anywhere near the crime around then as there is now. Many a young fella got a size 10 police boot up his "Khyber Pass" in days gone by...the memories of which kept him on the straight and narrow. I was one of those young fellas!!

I think that two two words I used in the paragraph above sorta sum attitudes up...everyone is passing judgment...on the strength of a newspaper article. As my Dad always said to me..."Before you pass judgment on someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes". Very sage words.

I feel sorry for the Police Officer and his family because they have to suffer the post shooting trauma stress...I feel equally sorry for the family of the criminal that was shot because they have to suffer the loss of a loved family member.

Do I feel sorry for the criminal...in some respects yes, he was a fellow human being, in other respects, not one iota. I am sure that nobody forced the drugs he was addicted too down his throat or into his veins...he made that decision and did that to himself. Nobody forced him to commit the crimes he did...including the one that put him in Jail or robbing the Bank...he did these things to himself. He made the conscious decision to do these things, knowing full well the consequences.

I can understand the Police Officers decision to shoot when he did....how was he to know what the criminal was doing with his hand out of sight. Was he, as some said, turning off the ignition, or was he, as most Police Officers would immediately think, reaching for a weapon with which to fight the law. I don't know what his intentions were...only the dead criminal knew this. But I cannot, and will not condemn the Police Officer for believing, or doing, what he did...it was a matter of survival on his part.

As we go through life, each and every one of us makes decisions for which we must accept the consequences...both good and bad. It can be as simple as drinking too much one night...consequences are a woeful hangover the next day....or as complex as deciding to have a family...consequences are a lack of money for many years, some of the most satisfying times of our life, and in some cases the actions of our children...as the family of the criminal is now experiencing. Police Officer Simone is also suffering the consequences of his actions...in many forms, mostly unpleasant or bad. The criminal is also suffering the consequences of his conscious decisions and actions.

So, what am I trying to say...I try to look at things objectively...I try to see both sides of an argument...I try not to pass judgment, either way. Nobody knows what is going through the mind of another man or woman...especially women Shocked Hiding so we cannot say with any certainty what bought about their decisions or actions.

Finally...Judge not, and ye shall not be Judged.

Cheers, Vince

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FALPhil
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

Handloader wrote:
Officers enforce the law; they don't make the law. The law is clear in this case, a fleeing felon resisting arrest and a danger to the public at large. How is it that we are called upon by some to muster even a portion of empathy for the perp? To the contrary, good riddance, no tears. Job well done.

Based on the little bit of information in the two Plain Dealer articles, Simone had a few options. He chose the deadly one. Had one of the bank employees killed the perp, I would have no problem. But Simone killed him after the threat was passed.

Resisting arrest by fleeing does not warrant death. There was no indication from the information provided in the articles that the perp was a danger to the public at large (although there is an indication that the bank had a policy to to take every threat at face value).

Killing fleeing suspects is not how you want police to operate. It is bad policy all the way around, for pretty obvious reasons that no one in this thread seems to consider. There have been many cases where innocent "fleeing suspects" were killed based on mistaken identity. Think about how you would feel if a policeman saw or was told a description of a suspect which happened to match the description of your son, who was not involved but panicked when an apprehension was attempted. I think you would change your tune.

It worked out, at least partially, this time, but I live near a city where cops kill innocent people about every couple of years. In fact, there is an $18 million lawsuit going on against the city right now concerning the death of a 92-year-old, great-grandmother who was killed "resisting arrest", and she had committed no crime.

Each year in the US, more innocent people are killed by cops than cops are killed in the line of duty. I anticipate this number will increase as we slide towards socialism and the offenses are blown out of proportion. We are already dangerously close to a police state, with the "us versus them" attitudes, the penchant for paramilitary armament, and the "overwhelming force" tactics which are used even for non-violent misdemeanors.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

You put forward a very good argument FALPhil...one that is difficult to argue. In fact, had the Police Officer shot and killed the felon whilst he was running away, then I would agree wholeheartedly with you.

However, if I read the article correctly the felon was shot whilst he was in his vehicle and reaching down below the level of the window...below where the Police Officer could not see what he was doing. In this instance the Police Officer obviously felt that his life was in imminent danger so he chose to defend himself with his firearm.

Admittedly, we here in Australia only hear what the media chooses to tell or show us, but the sort of things that we are shown indicate that it is common for a criminal to try to access a hidden firearm in his/her vehicle. It is a very strong possibility that the Police Officer thought that this was what the felon was in fact doing, hence him electing to use his own firearm first. If I remember correctly, Police Officers are taught that when they need to use their firearm they should "continue" until the threat is ended.

I won't comment on the felon's criminal history because it is irrelevant in that the Police Officer would not have been aware of it at the time of the incident.

I don't really think there is anymore I can add to this thread other than to say that it is terrible that somebody died, but it appears to me that the Police Officer did everything according to his training.

Cheers, Vince

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OntheLasGallinas
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

If this offends anyone, I'm sorry.

I'm very hard core about things like this. I believe that if you commit a crime or endanger the public and/or a police man tells you to stop, and you don't, you ought to get your sorry ass shot off.

I've got a scoundrel of a step son that is always pushing his luck. I told him one day that if he worked just as hard doing all the right things in life, he'd be a multi-millionaire, living in a mansion with a wonderful family, instead of being a worthless shit.

Most of people’s problems are life choices, not fate. You are who you hang around with, and, if you think the world owes you something, you're nothing but a sociopath.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

And if the cop fails to stop the "perp" by any means possible and he goes on to rob or kill some one elsewhere. Then how do you feel?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:06 am    Post subject: Re: LEO Kills Fifth Victim Reply with quote

Bushmaster wrote:
And if the cop fails to stop the "perp" by any means possible and he goes on to rob or kill some one elsewhere. Then how do you feel?
I feel like the cops are not doing their job. There was plenty of information to determine who the guy was, including video.

He was a crack addict - easy to find and pick up. In his prior felonies, there were no convictions related to violence, just theft and drugs. Reporting the information at hand would probably have ended up with the guy being in jail before sundown.

Look, this cop has been involved in 10 shootings. The vast majority of cops never fire their guns in the line of duty. Something is way out of proportion here.

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