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At what point is an animal "yours"
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DallanC
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:00 am    Post subject: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

After seeing several arguments on the subject of ownership of an animal and "theft", I have to ask, at what point in the harvest of a deer or elk does it legally become yours?

At the time of the shot? When its dead and on the ground? When you legally tag it? Just curious... i've never seen a legal definition of this, but would guess its when you tag it. Anyone know for sure?


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ghall
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

That was always my understanding, when you tag it. Even though it doesn't seem right. By putting the tag on it, that's what gives ownership (IMO).

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tbox61
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

Dallan,
I have always governed myself that the first person to inflict a fatal wound should be the legal tagger.

Had a friend shoot a 175 class whitetail last year here in Kansas with a double lung shot on one of his leases. The deer, as they sometimes do, took off on a dead run after the shot, crossed a fence onto property being hunted by another rifle hunter, who also double lunged him while the deer was going down. Should be the first hunter's deer, but when my buddy was pulling up, the second guy was tagging him.

I don't believe anything legal could have been done, and a nasty incident was avoided because my friend backed off and told the guy that if he felt good about harvesting a deer that was already 'dead on his feet', go ahead.

Needless to say, the second guy did not give up the deer.
Tim

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Blaine
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

There are situations every year that involve ownership. Around our area, the "established" norm is the hunter that inflicts the first mortal wound is the owner. If the deer travels more than 200-300 yards and is still on its feet, it is considered NOT a mortal wound,( for the purpose of determining ownership). I have been in some situations where even after the deer had traveled more than 500 yards, the second shooter could see a wound that should be lethal, and has relinquished ownership to the original shooter. We don't take much stock in "trophies' or big racks up here, so most hunters are after the deer for the meat. I remember one time where the first hunter gave the second hunter the antlers and a hind quarter and everyone went home happy. Also, this is a close knit community and most folks know everyone they come across in the woods. Possession of a deer is not worth loosing a friend over, so "share the wealth" is the order of the day.

Blaine

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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

Howdy When hunting around the house we no most of the people hunting the surounding properties so it's not much of a issue . I hunted state land in up state PA for a lotta years kinda looks like a pumpkin patch orange everywhere and the way they see it is who ever drops the animal owns it, i have seen some god awful arguments over this issue Fighting i have bin lucky i haven't had this happen to me. I feel it should be who ever mortaly wounded the animal but i'm sure there are a lot of views on this. When it happens with a friend it should be a easy matter to resolve but when it happens with a stranger it could get a little hairy Fencing
Joe.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

Where I hunt and the manor in which I hunt I seldom come across anyone. Not many want to hunt at 8,000+ feet and travel more then 100 yards from a road. Most often than not I have the mountain to myself. I also don't hunt opening day as too many city folk hunt that day. I always pray for rain or snow on opening day as most will leave for the comfort of their fireplaces to drink a todey and brag about their "great hunt". I also prefer weekday hunting over weekends. While everyone is wasting their leave on what their wives should be doing I am saving my leave for hunting, fishing and horse camps. It's my wife's job to take care of the trivial things as taking the kids to the doctor and such. (I might add that all my kids are grown now, but that was the way when they were in house)...

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jarhead7481
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

Bushmaster wrote:
Where I hunt and the manor in which I hunt I seldom come across anyone. Not many want to hunt at 8,000+ feet and travel more then 100 yards from a road. Most often than not I have the mountain to myself. I also don't hunt opening day as too many city folk hunt that day. I always pray for rain or snow on opening day as most will leave for the comfort of their fireplaces to drink a todey and brag about their "great hunt". I also prefer weekday hunting over weekends. While everyone is wasting their leave on what their wives should be doing I am saving my leave for hunting, fishing and horse camps. It's my wife's job to take care of the trivial things as taking the kids to the doctor and such. (I might add that all my kids are grown now, but that was the way when they were in house)...

I am with you Bushmaster. We need to put a hunt together! Smile

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

You'd hunt with an old Sailor? Bring it on Jarhead.
If I have my way that could happen in a couple of years as I plan to retire in southeast Missouri.

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delboy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

The way you're going Bushy, you ain't old enough to tire - let alone re-tire!

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LittleMagnum
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

When it's tagged and back to camp...............In Vt Who ever shot the last killing shot, meaning who ever shot and got there first and tagged it.
I don't want any animal that someone else made a killing shot on, and call it mine. I shoot my own trophy's.

This is no lie, a friend of my hunting buddie, shot a large black bear 340 lb in VT, about 3 weeks ago. The bear hit hard ran off in to some standing corn field's.
He lost the blood trail, went to get help. While driving back to look for the bear, He noticed a group of people at a adjacent farm. Pulled in, and there was his bear. The farmer said he hit it with his self-propelled chopper with a kemper corn head and killed it, were talking about 8ft of rotating blades. The Bear had no damage to it other then one bullet hole. The hunter called a game warden on his cell phone, game warden came. And because the Bear died on posted porperty. It was the land owner's bear ? The hunter got to tag it and get his picture taken with it, but thats it. Even though there was only one bullet hole in the bear. The Farmer wanted a bear rug and wasn't giving up the bear. If I was the hunter I would fight this one, because no landowner should be able to claim wildlife, just because he found it on his land or said he killed it with his chopper.
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SakoL61R
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

Where I'm from, it's whoever put the first mortal wound into it. Never had to argue the point, though.

My brother and I teamed up on a 3x4 blacktail way back when we were teenagers in the 70's. His first Very Happy . My bro went 3/5 with the Remmy 742 in '06). I had a clean miss and a kill shot with a M70 in '06. Dad got to us, said "where's the gd war?" and was a little po'd that we'd shot so many of his handloaded 180 Partitions at it. (the old ones with the cannelures).

It's among our top ten tales when we all get together now cause one of my bro's 3 hits was a low texas heart shot that took the bucks' nutsack completely off :wtf:.....
yep, that was the look on Dad's face when we went to guttin'.
Still makes my laugh!

Sako
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Flint54
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

Fencing It's mine! Fighting NO, It's Mine! Bonk My Buddy and I Say It's MINE!!! Pistol Shooting WELL WE NOW KNOW IT'S MINE!!!!!!!!! Rant

Sorry had to do it. Too many times a lack of cool heads and raised emotions cause stupid incidents that go beyond sanity!! I believe that you have to look at this issue from two perspectives. ETHICAL & LITERAL

ETHICAL:

It is the property and RESPONSIBILITY of the first person to shoot and wound the game animal. Their first shot should be the one to put the animal down under ideal conditions. It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the Hunter to cleanly dispatch his target with the least ammount of suffering. The hunter should refrain from shooting if there is a chance that he cannot cleanly dispatch his target. So therefore the game should be that of the one who took the first shot.

LITERAL:

Hunters are human and make mistakes. If your shot allows the animal to range beyond a couple of hundred yards out of your site and in many cases it will be out of your site well under that distance. You have an obligation to track that animal until it is found. If in that time period someone else happens to shoot and drop your game, or even if you come across someone tagging an animal that you believe that you shot #1 be thankfull that it has been recovered, #2 analize the situation. You can tell by the tone of someone when they first open their mouth as to what you chances are in recovering what you believe to be your animal. If they are receptive you have a good chance, if not, WALK AWAY!!!! It is not worth your life!!!

I could go on but we have all heard various stories, We Hunt for enjoyment not out of need! If you don;t get that deer, you are not going to starve!! There are many others out there. There are idiots out there, the case in Wisconsin is a prime example of this. Cool heads could have prevailed without the death of several. There is NO NEED!!

Be Safe Everyone, Use your Heads and Live to Hunt Another Day. Mad

PS: Yes I have met them thar idiots out there, I Walked Away and Felt Better for It. Cheers Cool
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515034s10ring
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

Who ever shoots last and tags first is the 'status quo' here. Very Happy
But seriously, i'd like to put in to perspective two issues, one of which i guess you could call "my" moral issue and secondly, a different angle at theft.

First, if i find an animal that was "visually" wounded or "suffering", hell yeah i'm going to shoot it because why see it suffer any longer (critters have to eat too). Fortunately though, where i hunt one guy has over 600 acres to my south, another guy has 400 acres to my north, and i hunt everything in the middle because to my west is the river front and from there to the enterences to their lands is a private road.
Anyway, quite a few times deer stroll right into my scope, and noticing the wound i shoot it, gut it, and get one of the other guys to take it back and hang it (do i tag it though, no....could i tag it, yes). Although (and always shortly thereafter), we meet up with the other property owners, and sure enough it's one of theirs. Confused But by these guys knowing me, they know my ethics, and they are 'luckily' fine with my ultimatums of buying brunch if that just so happens. Very Happy If i didn't know these people though and a stranger just came up to me afterwords and made his claim, that wouldn't fly too well....but i was never in a situation that i've ever had an animal run onto another property, or more than 75-100 yards from where i shot it, and that's only durring bow season.

Now, to bring the actual act of theft into perspective. I was always known to "mark" my deer above and beyond just tagging, only for knowing that with many other deer on a pole which one was mine. With the deer on my truck ready to go home, the guys i hunt with and i decided to get a bite to eat. When we came back outside though, my deer was gone (with rope cut and all) and my tag was laying by my tire. Mad First i called the police and then the local CO's office while looking in the parking lot at four other doe's (local hang out for hunters) waiting for both of them to soon (in minutes) arrive. We started checking all the deer for my identification and sure enough the last deer, furthest away in the parking lot that was my deer! And to make a long story short, four guys claimed it was theirs and four guys were arrested because of me notching the tounge a certain way as a form of proof positive identification. And all my hunting buddies thought i was paranoid and strange. Very Happy

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Blaine
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

10ring,

You were wise to mark your deer, and while on the game pole, I can see the logic. But isn't it tragic and a sign of our times that you would have to use your identification to recover the deer because some low-life had the audacity to steal it in broad daylight in a parking lot. How shallow would a person have to be to steal a deer off someone's truck? I'm sure glad I live where I do. Around here no one would ever do such a trick.

Blaine

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515034s10ring
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: At what point is an animal "yours" Reply with quote

Blane:

It is in deed very tragic! But i guess when you grow up in the Detroit area questioning people like i have, it's just a way of (sad but true) life. The strangest thing however was when an old boss of mine came from New Jersey, hunting pretty much the whole east coast, and said he did the same thing!

Take care

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