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Testing groups @ 25 yards
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:10 pm    Post subject: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

Was in a gun shop today talking to a guy that was working up a load for his newest deer rifle.

He starts telling me about his 25 yard groups and how good they are.

My question is, does anyone else do this?
I've always started at 100 yards then checked them at 200 yards.
Can groups at 25 yards give you any viable information?
I thought evryone worked at 100 yards with a high power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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wncchester
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

As a general rule, you are right. But, 25 yd. groups would be 1/4 of the 100 yard group size.
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mikeleduc
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

I use 25 yard groups for my pistols. Mine are mostly 4 or 6 inch barrels. I doubt a rifle group at that range would be too useful or tell you much of anything.
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hunthard24/7
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

I usually start at 25 with a newly mounted scope. Eveything else is at 100, 200, or 300
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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

I shoot a new scope at 25 yards just to get on paper and then move out for testing. All centerfire rifle groups are shot at 100. Rimfire at 50. I shoot ironsighted handguns at 25, scoped handguns at 75-100. I've been "zeroing" centerfire rifles at 100 yds but, for a "deer" cartridge, I usually set the point of impact 2" high at 100.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:24 am    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

Punkin Slinger wrote:
I shoot a new scope at 25 yards just to get on paper and then move out for testing. All centerfire rifle groups are shot at 100. Rimfire at 50. I shoot ironsighted handguns at 25, scoped handguns at 75-100. I've been "zeroing" centerfire rifles at 100 yds but, for a "deer" cartridge, I usually set the point of impact 2" high at 100.

I do pretty much what Punkin does. 25m to get on the paper then out to 100m for grouping and accuracy testing/confirming with the centrefires and 25m/50m for my rimfires.

However, if you are only doing early load development without being too concerned about accuracy then I suppose 25m is ok. Realistically though, you are kidding yourself if you are judging the accuracy of your whiz bang centrefire deer rifle.

When I was in the Army we did all of our zeroing at 25m with confirmation at 100m. For our qualifying shoots we did them between 100m and 300m, although just before I discharged they got right into the WETS system... but that ain't real shooting.

Cheers, Vince

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tikkat3
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:28 am    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

If its more than one shot at 25 its a waste in centrefire.
I test at 100 and centre at 200.
I use 50 to practice offhand.
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Morax
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:54 am    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

i beenvery lax te past year wit shooting and sightig in, i usually do as descibed above fr pistol but nothing past 25 yards, since anything pat 7 yards is not self defense anymore. for rifles, well rimfires i dont go past 100 bu i zero at a happy medium around 75 yrds.. from there shoot itlike crazyto KNOW where it will hit. center fires or hg power if you will, i had sighted fo 200 but dint feel right too itback out resighed for 100 but know where it will hit for in between..
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sniper
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

Annnnddd...the reason for all that is: The bullet first crosses the line of sight, scope mounted ~ 1.5in. above the bore, at about 25 yards, rises to its max height about 150+- yds., then gravity takes over, and it starts to fall.

Center the bullseye with the bullet/group at 25, it should be on paper at 100, but it takes 4X as many clicks at 25 yds. 4 clicks @ 1/4"= 1" at 100, 16 clicks @ 25yd.= 1 in.

2-3 shots should be enough to be sure it is all pointing the same way, then... to the 100yd and beyond ranges to dial it in.



Like pumpkinslinger said, 2-2.5in. above center will maximize point blank range. (The distance that the bullet is no more than 3-4in. below point of aim, funny enough, with most standard cartridges, occurring somewhere between 270-290 yds. (Not a bad neighborhood to be in, imo. Smile And, it should rise no more than 3+- in. on its way to the target.
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ElyBoy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

It happened last year to me.
A fellow was at the 25yd Pistol Range with his rifle when I walked in to shoot my 1911.
I didn't know the guy, but he showed me a "great group" that he had shot.
The group was at best 2".
I congratulated him, then proceeded to shoot a much tighter group with my .45 ACP.
I said nothing, but the guy saw my group, and left without comment.

Sometimes idiots get caught, sometimes they don't, but it sure is fun to quietly shut an idiot up once in a while. Very Happy Very Happy

Like the guys said, one shot at 25yds with a new scope, then over to the long ranges where the men play.

Eric

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

The SSAA range here in Sydney NO LONGER have rifle target set up less than 100meters !!! Shocked

I have to sight in my last two rifle at 100meters!!!
Considering that my ammo are all low velocity, it is very hard to get the setting right with less than 5 shots.
Talk about a waste of brain cells on whoever made that decision Mad

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

Where is your SSAA Range in Sydney mate?

Will they allow you to put a wooden target frame out at 50m Gelan? I am surprised that they dropped everything under 100m because that is where the rimfire shooters do most of their shooting. Very strange mate.

Cheers, Vince

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

I've had handgun shooters brag about the 6" "pattern" they were getting at 10 yards... I did agree that it was a pattern!

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tikkat3
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:28 am    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

Some people like to make nice patterns.
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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:07 am    Post subject: Re: Testing groups @ 25 yards Reply with quote

As a lot of shooters of long, heavy bullets at medium velocities know, 25-yard groups may well be larger than those at 100 or further. This is due to a phenomenon variously called "yaw", "nodding" or "bullet sway". In essence, the bullet nose is traveling out of line for a short distance before it is finally stabilized and actually "orbiting" the line of flight. Within a relatively short distance it "goes to sleep" and aligns with the flight path. Until it does so, the point of impact can vary quite a bit. This differs with each caliber and rifle, but I have seen 25-yard targets that were larger than those shot at 200 with the same load.

Isn't our sport fascinating?

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