Arizona Hunter wrote:

No. My instructor said it is best to use factory ammo, because if you ever do have to use your gun, you do not want some lawyer trying to tell the jury that you reload your shells because the factory stuff is not dangerous enough to the attacker.

If we had CCW here and some lawyer said that after using the pistol and stopping the BG, I'd respond by saying:

"Factory ammunition may be just as effective and its redally avalibe, but my handloads are each individually put together using only the best components, not unlike any other safety equipment. And so far its been proven 100% of the time to stop the attacker where he stoud so far, so I trust my handloads."



Dimitri

I agree with Joe and use reloads in all of my CCW handguns, shotguns and rifles (except .22 l.r. and .22 mag.). It is false to believe that the use of factory ammo will somehow protect you from ever being sued. Use what you got and move on. All the best...
Gil

This Thread was not meant to make anyone stop using hand loads, Just to get opinions on the subject. In the CCW classes I help with I see a lot of people that come with the attitude that they know it all and the only reason they are there is because the law requires the class for their CPL. Some will admit after taking the class they've learned something. and others don't. LOL, You all take care and don't get too upset, it's just a thread, and I learn something new every time I visit.

I have seen people teaching CCW classes that had neither the age or experience to do anything else but express the opinions of others they have read about. that being said, there are also a great number of very experienced people taking the time to teach people interested in CCW.
Each of us much make the decision for ourselves on who's opinion we use and who's we don't, and use our best judgment of who we learn from. Everyone that has written on this thread has had good advice that fit's their situation.
I for one appreciate all of your opinions.

ok this is snipped from a different websight but fits here
"Professionals, in a sense, live on the “cutting edge” between the tried and true and the new and uncertain. Society depends upon professionals to provide reliable fixed standards (of health, of justice, of truth, etc) in situations where the facts are murky or the temptations too strong. Their principal contribution is an ability to bring sound judgment to bear on these situations. They represent the best a particular community is able to muster in response to new challenges. By employing a knowledge of causes and principles, they are able to draw an increasing number of problems within the category of the predictable and manageable."


so basically if you have put the time into your reloading and have the proof behind what works best for you and the weapon then no lawyer can accually have the notion of saying it is more dangerous than factory loads, but in all acuality is is less dangerous because of it being tried and true from your weapon you KNOW where it will hit, not just "THINK" it will

Guys,
M. A. is highly respected as an expert witness in shooter defense cases all over the country. I have talked to him, read his book and read his recounts of court cases. He is a person with an opinion to be respected in such matters. I have had a CW permit in FL since the first week they were available under the current law. I signed my own certification with documents to prove my proficency with a handgun.

I shoot only reloads, but my carry gun is loaded with factory ammo. It is loaded with factory ammo because of the civil suit that may come from a person that I wound or kill. The plaintiff's attorney will make a big deal about the reloads being created by me, just to maim or kill his client. That allegation is hard for a jury to ignore in a courtroom.

Now this is the bottom line.... You carry to protect yourself and others from violence..... Go one step further and protect yourself and your family from the attorney-vultures that would break you financially.
Ed

No self defense case has ever convicted a shooter for the kind of ammo used in his defense. Not one person has ever been prosecuted for using reloads in self defense. If you are more worried about what ammo you have in your gun because of a possible prosecution than you are in having to use deadly force in the first place just leave your gun at home in your lock box. I think that all the years of anti-gun BS has made shooters paranoid. I for one care more about being ready to use my gun with the most accurate ammo in self defense than I do about if some prosecuter is going to try me for using rounds that are "more or less lethal" than factory offerings. If I ever have to kill in my own defense then the last thing I need to worry about is whether I have to compensate for factory ammo or not. I am used to shooting my handloads - just as the rest of you are. does that factory ammo shoot the same? Is it as accurate? In a firefight you are going to have enough stress without having to stop and think about where you have to aim to hit the right spot.

Use your best or don't use anything.

ok, my rant is over. I am having a lot of back pain tonight and this topic is one that hits my hot spot - can you tell? sorry - I don't mean to insult any individuals - just the concept.

So, I guess I'll go out and get a .500 S&W mag and use factory ammo... sounds as rediculous as being prosecuted for using handloads for my .357.

I totally agree with you Paul. I'm responsible and accountable for every round that I have to put down range wether it's at the range or in self defence. I want to be sure of exactly where they go. Like I posted before, my loads are fine tuned for accuracy and none of them are max loads for power. Especially my defence loads which are for a 3" small frame Taurus. The recoil would be horrendous, not to mention the danger of damageing my gun and/or myself.

Paul S's opening sentences are factual: "no one has ever been prosecuted . . . ". Least, however, one believes that bestows the blessing to go forth and use handloads for personal defense, allow that criminal and civil cases are not decided typically on singular issues such as ammo. Cases are decided on a range of relevant matters and can take days, weeks or months to present. To suggest the type of ammo isn't a factor is incorrect.

In the "discovery" process, the type of ammo is a factor. When asked and answered, it may go no further, yet, the use of handloads is an opening that can be used disadvantageously by a prosecutor. Juries are often swayed by minor factors and many a jury has convicted/acquited based on irrational or illogical reasons. Perceptions and viewpoints taint the logic process. "Did you handload those rounds with the intent of using them to kill or maim another person, if needed?" Intent. Premeditation. Connect the dots.

As a defense witness in two self defense cases, I can tell you that the issue of ammo type was brought up. It was a minor portion of the prosecution's presentation in both cases. In one case, it was a negative factor and was part of the range of factors that brought about a huge cash award against the defendant.

OK, sorry to break my vow of silence, but, this is really an important issue. If you are ambivalent, having read the pros and cons, check with CCW providers and do some research. There is a world of difference between being a forum "warrior" and the real world of personal defense. Know the difference if you carry.

PAUL hit it perfectly with the "use your best or dont use anything" statement. you should already know where the round will hit or you shouldnt be using the weapon.

handloader, if the jury is going to be swayed by the "witchcraft of reloading shells" then they will be swayed by the suit the people are wearing, the color of thier skin thier religious beliefs and whole slew of other things that we KNOW they will be swayed by. we are working on assumptions of what the human mind will think given a certain situation. myself personally i think if the guy used reloads and shot the guy in self defense then no problem, if he used reloads and commited a triple murder hey he needs to fry in a chair. it dont matter what you use but how its used.

Well Handloader, you make a interesting point.

Morax,

Thing is if a lawyer, even if he is the best lawyer in the state, walks in with jeans and a white short sleeve t-shirt, he will not look professional and be judged by the jury on his selection of clothing because the jury will think of him as a idiot/low class lawyer, no matter how good he is.

By the way, if I ever go anywhere near Arizona I'm going to need your address I'm defiantly stopping over!

Dimitri

thats what i was trying to say D!!

Morax,

Sorry my mistake!

Anyways best to assume In my opinion the jury is filled with a bunch of anti-hunting, gun hating hippies and prepare to deal with them.

Other Jurors who are anti-gun behind close doors may try to convince the other ones that you are in the wrong no matter how much you are in the right. So sometimes its best to get the fence sitters on your side so the anti's in the crowd are not going to be able to do what they want to do. And thats where Handloader's past history of them comes into play, if the hand loads are made to look bad, any fence sitters will not know they are not bad and then the anti-gun people in the jury can use it to their advantage to make you lose.

Dimitri

Dimitri wrote:

Morax, Sorry my mistake! Anyways best to assume In my opinion the jury is filled with a bunch of anti-hunting, gun hating hippies and prepare to deal with them. Other Jurors who are anti-gun behind close doors may try to convince the other ones that you are in the wrong no matter how much you are in the right. So sometimes its best to get the fence sitters on your side so the anti's in the crowd are not going to be able to do what they want to do. And thats where Handloader's past history of them comes into play, if the hand loads are made to look bad, any fence sitters will not know they are not bad and then the anti-gun people in the jury can use it to their advantage to make you lose. Dimitri

Big D, not all Hippies are anti-Gun...LOL, I grew up in the 60's...Peace Man.

Glockman,

Didn't say they were all anti-gun, .... I'm refering to the "Anti-Hunting" and "Anti-gun" hippies I seem to find around the crazy ones. Not the normal ones.

Dimitri