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209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en
Hunting and discussion with Muzzle Loaders, Archery and other Primitive weapons

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popgun
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Location: Mitchell, GA, U.S.A. (2007 pop. 191)

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:11 pm    Post subject: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

This is a heads up post on a problem that has shown up primarily with Hodgdon's Triple Se7en pellets when ignited with standard and magnum 209 shotgun primers.

I have seen on several forums on the net that some folks are reporting that they are getting a fouling or burn ring that prevents seating to the proper depth when using 209 Shotgun Primers. The theory stated is that the primers are too hot and in effect the primer when detonated causes the charge and bullet to move slightly forward in the barrel before the charge ignites. That is the cause of the fouling or burn ring that prevents full depth seating of the next charge and bullet. This creates higher pressures if the next round is not properly seated and fired and warrants user caution and corrective action.

Some folks have tested the old and less powerful Remington 209-4 primers made for reloading the 410 shotgun shells and found that the ring did not appear and in effect eliminated the problem.

I have also seen replacement breach plugs offered for the Knight rifles that have a nipple that extends into the chamber to ignite the pellets at the top end of the powder column which 'may' prevent this same condition.

The Remington 209-4 primers are out of production but I see in the latest Cabala's Catalog that arrived yesterday that Remington is making a 'new' primer for in-line muzzleloader firearms. This primer is recommended for all pellet loads by various manufacturers. Cabela's is offering the primers in 500 quantity plus hazmat so you might want to keep an eye on your local suppliers for the new Remington primers to avoid the shipping and hazmat charges.

Click Here, Link to Remington Muzzleloader Primers

Click Here, Link to Remington Website Information
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popgun
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

I checked 4 gunstores and the story was always the same. They just heard about the problem within the last week and had not received any information from Remington or their distributors on the burn ring problem or availability of the new Remington "Kleanbore Muzzleloader Primers". The information is in their hands because one store owner picked up a 2005 catalog and flipped through it and found the primers listed. At the moment it looks like Cabelas is my only source for the primers and I hope they have them in stock at the PA store when I visit the state later this month.
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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

Howdy Chris. Is this problem only with the pellets or with loose powder a well i use 777 powder i haven't noticed any problems as of yet but i will look a little harder thanks for the heads up

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popgun
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

It is a problem mainly with pellets, Pyrodex, Triple Se7en, etc. You can tell if it does the same for granular powder by doing a little test. Load up and mark your ramrod to indicate the proper load depth. Fire the load and reload the same charge and bullet and see if you can seat the bullet to the previous mark. If the mark is above the muzzle and not even with it there is a fouling/burn ring preventing proper seating.

That is the condition that the new Remington "Kleanbore Muzzleloader Primers" (209 type) are intended to prevent. The primer is supposed to burn cleaner but more importantly it is not as hot as standard & Magnum 209 primers. They ignite the powder and do not move the charge and bullet forward before ignition that would cause a burn ring.
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popgun
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

I continued my search for Remington Kleanbore Muzzleloader Primers this weekend while traveling up and down the east coast. I found one pack of 100 at the Keystone Country Store in PA.

On the way home I stopped in at my local WalMart and found a large supply on the shelf. I picked up a couple more pack's of 100 for my hunting buddies. As usual when WalMart runs out of stock that will be it for this year. So if you are interested in testing and using these primers with Triple Se7en or Pyrodex pellets this year keep an eye on the muzzleloading section at WallyWorld". You should find them there this week all over the country.
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popgun
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

I did a simple little test this week with the new Remington Kleanbore Muzzleloading Primers. I say little because I only fired 5 rounds using 2 Triple Se7en pellets. With 5 rounds fired I did not get a crud ring and did not have to clean between shots to seat the subsequent rounds at the proper depth.
I need to run a better test when I have the time and when the temperature and humidity is lower. It's no fun doing a shooting test when the temps are in the 90s.
I want to shoot the standard Winchester 209 primers to see if I get the crud ring under the same conditions that I shoot and compare the Remington Kleanbore Muzzleloading Primers.
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dee
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

i have had the same problem with the 777 pellets. i shoot a traditions pursuit pro. the first load goes down no problem. the second was really hard and by the third shot i basically needed a hammer to seat the bullet. i switched to pyrodex pellets and had no trouble
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

Great info Popgun. I gave 777 a try when it came out and everyone was singing praises... I never saw any of the benefits claimed by others but its nice to see there are solutions coming about to improve things. Perhaps some day I'll give up my Pyro in favor of a "next great thing" but until then I'll just watch from the sidelines and Popcorn

Laughing


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Flint54
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:19 am    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

I have never used T7, I probably shoot more FFFg & FFg than anything else. This past year I went through 6 pounds combined. In Pyrodex I went through 1 pound & 1 box of 50/50 and 3/4 of a 60/54.

Shows how much I really shoot my in-lines.

Take note of this though: After @ 3-4 shots with the .54 I noticed that there was a tight spot within about 1.5" of the bullet being seated. I reference this to the loaded witness mark on my rod. I am using only Power Belt Bullets when this happens and what I did was to start using Wonder Wads just as I do when I use Maxis or Sabots. Once I did that it seemed to go away.

I don't put much concern on this as when hunting seldom do I shoot more than twice before the rifle is cleaned. Normally if I need a second shot or a coup I use a PRB, with 70gr of Pyrodex RS or 70gr of FFFg they will shoot within an inch of my hunting loads out to 50 yards.

I think I'll set up a day at the range with my 2 inlines and various powders & bullet combinations. I'll then report my findings and observations. I can't be very scientific due to my limitations and equipment but I'll do the best I can with what I have. Cheers
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popgun
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

Quick note: I tried a small test of the Remington Kleanbore Muzzleloading Primers and Triple Se7en pellets but enough to see that I was not getting the crud ring with the new primers. Again this was a small test and I have not had the time to do a more estensive test and testing against other primers under the same conditions.
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Flint54
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

Exclamation Update on 777. I just happened to be reading some litrature that comes with the individual packages of POWERBELT BULLETS. In their warnings they state:

" When using charges of Triple 7, it may be necessary to swab the bore with a wet patch between every shot! Pay particular attention to the area of the bore where the bullet seats, as fouling build-up is heaviest in this area. This procedure may be necessary to remove any excess fouling that could potentially lead to the short starting of the bullet."

The packages of Powerbelts that I have I got back in early 2004 so I would gather that this information is something that has been known by Hodgdon and various other Sabot manufacturers also.

Follow safe and cautious loading procedures and also swab your bores as they recommend. You should then not have many problems. Also if you are inclined give one of the BP Bullets alternitive priming solutions a try. They use small rifle primers in either an adaptor or a .25 Auto case and provide all the "Flame & Spark" to ignite your charges without the massive force that comes with a standard 209 shotgun primer.

VariFlame Primer Adapter link:
www.bpbullets.com/vari...apter.html

.25 Auto case comversions:
www.bpbullets.com/thom...omega.html
www.bpbullets.com/thom...ncore.html


Viking Howdy Viking Cool
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smoky
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

Hello to all. New guy on board. Love the site.

In response to the post.....

My smokepoles will do this to some degree even with loose 777.

To help the problem, I don't use 209s. I find them too hot.

I use the 25ACP conversion in my Encore and the old #11 caps in my Knight wolverine. I also use fffg and find it to be less of a crud ring.

However, the crud ring is still there to some degree, but if you swab between shots with a very moist patch, taking short 3"-4" strokes on the way down, then it usually comes out fine.

My routine is

1. shoot
2. wet patch down barrel with short 3-4" strokes
3. flip patch over, one long stroke all the way down
4. allow barrel about 1 minute to make sure all moisture is evaporated from barrel (or you can run another dry one down immediately, but MAKE SURE it comes back out the barrel with the cleaning jag.)
5. Reload

Smoky
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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

Howdy Welcome to HuntingNut Smoky sit and stay awhile Smile

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Flint54
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 209 Primers and Hodgdon Triple Se7en Reply with quote

Cool Welcome Smoky! Happy to have you onboard! Its nice to see someone else that uses the conversion kits from bpbullets, IMO they are much better than 209s for ignition. The 209s have too much power and that leads to inconsistant ignition and has also been linked to hangfires with various powders/pellet/projectile combinations.

One thing that everyone that uses 209s needs to remember is that they need to use a projectile combination that is a VERY TIGHT fit in the bore of their rifle. With a loose fitting projectile IMO and opinions of many others the power of a 209 could very well push the whole column of pellets/powder & bullet far enough forward as to cause the same effect of short starting a bullet with explosive results. I would not want to see this happen to anyone!

I really wish that I could get the .25 Auto plug for my rifles as I would immediately change to them. The VeriFlame works very well but at $15.00 per 10 you don't want to loose them. A .25 Auto case is a lot more inexpensive. The adaptors last and last they just need a bit of cleaning that only takes a few seconds each.

As you can gather, I am very happy and satisfied with this product and I have to state that I I have no connection with this company in any way. But for the advantages that they give you I fully recommend this product!

Cheers
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