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Get the lead out! gun cleaning
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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Alaskasourdough
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Joined: Jul 22, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:54 pm    Post subject: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

I do a lot of bullet casting of lead bullets for my 44 mag, and other calibers, for a lot fun plinking and teaching others how to shoot. I found that by taking a normal brass cleaning brush and wrapping a 6-8 inch piece of strand of Chore-Boy copper cleaning pad, around the brass brush with a cleaning solvent, it cleans out the lead very fast. The Chore-Boy copper is hard, but the copper does not scratch the steel barrels!
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SwampFox
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
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Location: Destin, Florida

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

Alaska,
Welcome to the nut house.... Very Happy

Shot cast only, in competition for about 25 years. If you are doing a lot of cast bullet shooting and you are getting leading or fouling you might want to try RB-17. I have used it for near 20 years now and it cleans a gun up like nothing else I have ever seen. It is the only product that I ever found that will clean a comp on a race gun with a tooth brush. This is the site where it is sold, do not look in stores.
Ed

www.rb-treasures.com/product3.html

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The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
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Alaskasourdough
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

SwampFox wrote:
Alaska,
It is the only product that I ever found that will clean a comp on a race gun with a tooth brush.

If it sounds too good to be true.....
After shooting up to one hundred rounds of hard cast lead, and past cleaning experiences, no tooth brush is going to remove lead from spiral grooves of a .44 mag. Your product seems to be primarily for rust removal.
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Handloader
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Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

Alaskasourdough: good suggestion, sir. Welcome to the forums and post often. Marshall Stanton of "Beartooth Bullets" recommends a similar method and I have found it effective (check out his website for great bullet casting information). Still it is our human nature to look for easier and faster ways, so, I may try the SwampFox endorsed RB-17 just because I like to try new stuff.

Avoiding leading is probably where I have put my emphasis. Barrels that have been lapped, either hot or cold, have reduced a lot of leading problems for me over the years. Matching the pressure of my loads for the hardness of the bullet, however, was a breakthrough. Here's a fun formula to work with:

Hardness x 1,144 = the pressure at which base obturation takes place. If the bullet is properly sized and run at the proper pressure, little leading will occur when obturation takes place. Leading around the forcing cone and just in front of it suggests inadequate pressure, while leading toward the muzzle end indicates excessive pressure. Of course, having a hardness tester eliminates a lot of the guessing if one can correctly define the pressure of the load.

An old fashioned method of getting leading removed was the useage of mercury. Before it became a "bad" thing, we used it frequently to take the lead out of badly leaded bores. Nothing before or since has been more effective or faster. They have used mercury for such purposes for decades, however, its absence today may be relative to increased shooter longevity.

The Lewis lead removers can be another effective method and, in essence, uses the same idea of using copper scouring pads, however, in a nice and more costly easy to use package.

Gas checked bullets help, too. It increases cost, but, few of us shoot enough that it would make a sizeable dent in the monthly budget.
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rrogacki
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Joined: Apr 22, 2006
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Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

I've used the Outers Foul Out system for years now. IMHO, nothing gets lead or copper out any better. Easy as heck to use. It is a sort of reverse electo plating device. Has anyone else tried this system?

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Joe Boleo
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Joined: Dec 25, 2006
Posts: 427
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:05 am    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out gun cleaning Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum. My traditional favorites are Shooters Choice, Remington Bore Cleaning, J.B Bore Cleaner and lead wiping cloth to remove leading. My cast bullets are very hard and driven at moderate velocities and I do not have leading problems. Take care...
Joe
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SwampFox
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

You guys can try this. I made one years ago and it is in my reloading room right now. It is called the 50 Cent Foul Out. I made a plastic funnel that is cut to muzzle diameter and duct taped to the exterior of the barrel.

ca.geocities.com/snide...eaner.html

But it does not do much for lead.
Ed

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rrogacki
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Joined: Apr 22, 2006
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Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

SwampFox wrote:
You guys can try this. I made one years ago and it is in my reloading room right now. It is called the 50 Cent Foul Out. I made a plastic funnel that is cut to muzzle diameter and duct taped to the exterior of the barrel.

ca.geocities.com/snide...eaner.html

But it does not do much for lead.
Ed

SwampFox
The 50 Cent Foul Out is gonna put Outers outta business. I'm gonna put one together and compare the two, but I bet the 50 Cent will beat the commercial product in a heartbeat. The website is pretty interesting too.
Best Of Luck

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Deleted_User_2665
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

Okay....I'm game.

But can anyone know if the solution in the commercial foul out system is ammonia? As far as I know that system is billed as a use it whenever type thing.

I've always wanted to try one but couldn't like parting with that cash for something I could do a cheaper way, albeit with a little more elbow grease.

I've also wanted to build one because the electric part is a no brainer and the plating process as well....it's been the not knowing what the solution was that's hung me up.

Scientifically hypothesizing, what if one of the more "gentler" copper disolving solutions were used.....if the system is based on a disolved copper plating to the rod. Might have to allow more time but maybe there would be no risk of a hurt tube.

This would be cool if the solution would do no harm to the bore.............

On aside...I"m a TIG welder (among other processes) by trade. A piece of TIG filler wire, which is both straight and stiff, would be just the ticket for the "rod". I'll ask my Pop, who is a retired chemistry and physics teacher, if it would matter what metal is best to use. Stainless, Titanium, various grades of carbon...are all easily accessible.
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rrogacki
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

Hi wildswalker,

I checked my bottles of solution from Outers. The Cop Out solution states that it contains Copper Acetate and Ammonium Acetate. The Lead Out contains Lead Acetate and Ammonium Acetate. Don't know what this stuff is and I have no idea where to get the raw chemicals, but you can buy the solutions from the Outers website.

Good Luck

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K.W.
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Posts: 348
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

Moi. I put some Hornady HP/XTP bullets backwards in the cases and use them during shooting time if there is heavy leading. K.W.
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Deleted_User_2665
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Posts: 380

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

rrogacki wrote:
Hi wildswalker,

I checked my bottles of solution from Outers. The Cop Out solution states that it contains Copper Acetate and Ammonium Acetate. The Lead Out contains Lead Acetate and Ammonium Acetate. Don't know what this stuff is and I have no idea where to get the raw chemicals, but you can buy the solutions from the Outers website.

Good Luck

Good info...

I'll check with Pop on just what exactly that stuff is....he's savvy on all things Chemistry.

By definition acetate means a salt or ester........

Mebbe just buying the Outers solution would be the simplist route as I'm thinkin' most of the cost incured is in the magical electronic device sourced initially.
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Deleted_User_2665
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

Per the original tenor of this thread....

Keeping velocities within the bounds of cast lead lends heavily towards unleaded barrels....

As does using the proper bullet lube and gas check design bullets...............
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Deleted_User_2665
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

Checked with Dad on this and he's gonna research a few things....

He did say though per the firing of a CF with copper bullets there are two things deposited in the bore. One being a physical transfer of metallic copper, the other being copper oxide which is a reaction of the burning gases on the deposited copper solids.

Little can be done with the metallic copper short of a mechanical removal such as vigorous brushing, or the introduction of acids too powerful for the barrel metal to withstand.

The blue color found on cleaning patches with the use of a commercial copper "solvent" is the removal of the copper oxide. Thinking back on it, I've notice the blue stop and a phase of green appear. This would indicate the copper oxide to be removed and the "solvent" is then working on the metallic copper....so Dad's not pulling my leg.

His opinion of the Foul Out system is that, with the given solution of Copper Acetate, it's only working on the copper oxide as that's the easiest to "loosen" and make "stick" to the rod. To actually "plate" the copper metallics onto the rod would require the solids to be put into "solution" and that would require a much more powerful electrolosis medium than just ammonia, or the copper acetate. Likely an acid which no sane person would want to put in their rifle.

Many things are marketed successfully in this world to unsuspecting consumers due to the lack of understanding or to ignorance. Case in point, if the "blue" is gone then the copper must be too...

I'm guilty of that one myself..........
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SwampFox
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: Get the lead out! gun cleaning Reply with quote

Now just think a second, forget sporting guns, how long would an M-16, M-60 or M-2 function if the bullet jacket copper remained in the bore and built up in the bore? As a former military armoror and member of the 101st Airborne Division I have examined hundreds of these guns after cleaning with military bore solvent and they have no copper residue that could be seen or picked up with a patch. No gun is ever turned in to the arms room without a solvent and white patch inspection. These guns were never cleaned with"an acid which no sane person would want to put in their rifle."

When an M-16, M-60 or Ma-duce barrel wears out, it is always over bore, it is never discarded due to constriction by copper fouling. If a trooper ever brought a fouled bore to me, he would be doing the dying cockroach and 4 count pushups for the rest of his natural life.
Ed

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-Winston Churchill
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