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Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer'S
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer'S Reply with quote

In working on new loads for my .22-250, I noticed that Nosler recommends 36gr. of IMR 4895 as the MAXIMUM when using their 40gr. ballistic tip bullet and IMR suggests 36gr. as a MINIMUM load, with a max of 39gr. I decided to play it safe and started @ 32gr. (MINIMUM in Nosler's data), but can't get the shots to group under 2.5". Whose data would you trust more- the bullet manufacturer or the powder manufacturer? Should I jump up to 36gr and work up from there? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

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Gil Martin
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer' Reply with quote

hunterjoe21,
You raise an interesting question. Like you, I tend to error on the side of caution when working up loads. The same situation exists among different reloading manuals and the data they present. I would go slow and watch for pressure signs. All the best...
Gil

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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer' Reply with quote

Howdy. Gil has good advice. When I'm working up a load I start low and move up in 1/2 grain increments until I find decent groups, then I work with the seating depth of the bullet. Every rifle is different the same load in on rifle may be fine and in another it may be max. As Gil stated watch for pressure signs( flatting of primers, difficult case extraction) and work up slowly. Better safe than sorry Very Happy
Joe

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K.W.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:18 am    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer' Reply with quote

Moi. When keep starting to load some new ones, I use powder manufacturer´s average. It is my bad habit. Kauko.
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Joe Boleo
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:20 am    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer' Reply with quote

K.W.,
Can you get reloading components easily in Finland? What does it cost for a pound of powder or 1,000 primers? Just curious. Take care...
Joe
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K.W.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer' Reply with quote

Hello mr Boleo. No problem because I have legal guns. VihtaVuori powders: N-100 serie aboat $ 56/ kilo and N-300 serie $ 49/ 0,5 kilo. Primers $ 33,00/1000sp. Bullets and cases all brans over the world. I use Sako, Lapua, Remington and Winchester cases. Cheapist rifle bullets $ o,o8. They are from Bosnia Herzegovina PPU/PRIV PARTIZAN made. Pistol and revolver cheapist $ 0,06. They are made in Finland copperplated resitzed cast bullets.
Kauko
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Deleted_User_2665
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer'S Reply with quote

I trust my own Savvy.....

I compile a generous number of manufacturers opinions concerning a max load of a particular bullet/chambering.

With that info I deduce a max based on average.

That max is reduced by 7% to facilitate a start load.

That is incrementally increased by .7 percent, note the decimal place.

This translates to roughly .3 or .4 grain incremental increases, again note the decimal place.

Loads are increased to, but never exceeding one grain over max.

The goal in that, is to find the first sign of pressure so the known quantity of max can be seen with that particular rifle. Usually a hinked up primer, but have seen sticky bolt lift a time or two.....

The results sought concerning an accurate load are almost always found almost near the generic max that was generated via publish data, but never over it.

Since I concern myself only with bullet impact in relation to point of aim, within my system, my critera for an accurate load is slighlty different than the mainstream.

I can find the sweet spot in a range of load testing and only intially have sub standard groups.

Upon finding what I deem as The Load, it's a simple matter of tweaking bullet seating depth to realize small groups.

What's amazing is to find a load for one bullet and have it work in like fasion/same POI with another bullet.

Just finished a load work up for a Ruger #1 in 25-06. Same charge weight of RL22 with Barnes 115 TSX's and Nosler BT's for a swap. Same point of impact and sub MOA groups from both offerings.

I can like that as the X's are my hunting choice and the BT's are for Play.......................
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer' Reply with quote

This topic comes up alot with reloaders. The first thing I would want to know is IMR using the same bullet. The components that are used is the key to all this. A change in one thing can mean a big difference in the pressure. This is why it is always recomended to start low and work up. The components that IMR used in their testing and test gun or pressure barrel simply allowed for more powder without getting excessive pressure. Whenever I'm starting with something new, I always use the bullet manufactures load data and start low. I've never encountered a problem this way. The one thing you must keep in mind is, their are too many variables that can change the outcome. Seating depth, case thickness, primer choice, tempreture, humidity, chamber dimensions, amount of freebore, and length of barrel are just a few that can influence the pressure curve.
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DallanC
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer'S Reply with quote

Welcome to the site chambered221.


-DallanC
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer' Reply with quote

Thank you for the welcome.
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Joe Boleo
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer' Reply with quote

It depends. I have about 15 different reloading manuals and when looking for a load compare several to get an idea of the recommended bullet and powder loads. I never load close to any maximum load. There are variations among the manuals. Like these good folks, I start at the low end and carefully work up until I find a safe load that shoots well. Take care...
Joe
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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer' Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:
This topic comes up alot with reloaders. The first thing I would want to know is IMR using the same bullet. The components that are used is the key to all this. A change in one thing can mean a big difference in the pressure. This is why it is always recomended to start low and work up. The components that IMR used in their testing and test gun or pressure barrel simply allowed for more powder without getting excessive pressure. Whenever I'm starting with something new, I always use the bullet manufactures load data and start low. I've never encountered a problem this way. The one thing you must keep in mind is, their are too many variables that can change the outcome. Seating depth, case thickness, primer choice, tempreture, humidity, chamber dimensions, amount of freebore, and length of barrel are just a few that can influence the pressure curve.

The bullet is the same for both loads, 40 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip.

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer' Reply with quote

Even if the bullet is the same Remington Cases have less capacity then Winchester for example, and military cases have even less then both.

So if Manufacturer "A" uses Winchester Brass they can put in more powder then Manufacturer "B" can that uses Remington Brass. Therefore what is "safe" in Manufacturer "A" opinion maynot completly apply according to Manufacturer "B".

Then you have the use of different primers etc which complicate things more.

Dimitri

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer'S Reply with quote

I guess the original question was lost in translation.

In developing a load, would you trust the BULLET manufacturer's data, or the POWDER manufacturer's?

I started my loads@ the lower end of the BULLET guys data, but would I be safe approaching the upper end of the POWDER guys data?

In this situation, and merging both sets of load data (just 2 Wildswalker), anything between 32 gr and 39 gr of powder might seem acceptable. That seems to be an extreme powder range (at least to me), which is the reason for the question.

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Bullet Manufacturer's load data vs. Powder Manufacturer' Reply with quote

I'd use the lower side myself, however I do not reload yet.

Once I start reloading I already know the load to use (since its going to be after I buy the M1A):

LC Brass
42.5gr Reloader 13 (Don't go higher on this load & work up from a lower charge!)
175gr Serria Match King
CCI #34 primers.

Not a hunting load, a "fun" shooting rifle load.

Dimitri

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