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Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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204Shooter
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

Jack, Handloader, PaulS, Morax, thanks a lot for your input. I am always amazed at the talent this web site has. I couldn't get a better discussion of loads for short barrel rifles if I paid for it. This web site is truly a hand loaders dream. Thanks for all you guys do.
Jerry

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204Shooter
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

Jack, Handloader, PaulS, Morax, thanks a lot for your input. I am always amazed at the talent this web site has. I couldn't get a better discussion of loads for short barrel rifles if I paid for it. This web site is truly a hand loaders dream. Thanks for all you guys do.
Jerry

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204Shooter
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

Jack, Handloader, PaulS, Morax, thanks a lot for your input. I am always amazed at the talent this web site has. I couldn't get a better discussion of loads for short barrel rifles if I paid for it. This web site is truly a hand loaders dream. Thanks for all you guys do.
Jerry

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Morax
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

SAHUNTER wrote:
While still off the subject from "Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win", Morax,Handloader and PaulS what are your relevant opinions of the muzzle blast (flame) seen from some rifles that is visible at nigh or in the dark?

well it sure isnt spent burnt powder cause if it is all burnt then its not on fire...
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

SAHUNTER

It's good to see a new member from South Africa! Welcome to the forums and I hope to see you post often and give your perspective on issues from your region.

Specific to PaulS' post, there is a distinct relationship between pressure and temperature. Raise one, raise the other. The optimum powder choice is typically one that gives high volumetric fill along with the highest potential velocity. This is why the Nosler manuals give some added data in that they show graphically the relationship between volume and velocity. In general, highest velocities are obtained with highest volume. As the data is read, selecting from Nosler the powder that gives both is one of the best powders to begin with for load development.

Muzzle flash is a combination of several factors. Ultra slow motion film will show muzzle flash prior to the exit of the bullet! In those cases, it is attributed to the column of air inside the barrel being pushed and compressed ahead of the accelerating bullet and that superheated air column will ignite the oxygen in proximity to the muzzle. The flash associated with muzzle blast occurs after the bullet has left the barrel and is affected by temperature of those gases further igniting oxygen outside the barrel as well as the volatility of the gasses themselves. The type of powder and the type of deterence coatings on the powder alter this flame signature.

At least, IMO.
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

SAHUNTER

It's good to see a new member from South Africa! Welcome to the forums and I hope to see you post often and give your perspective on issues from your region.

Specific to PaulS' post, there is a distinct relationship between pressure and temperature. Raise one, raise the other. The optimum powder choice is typically one that gives high volumetric fill along with the highest potential velocity. This is why the Nosler manuals give some added data in that they show graphically the relationship between volume and velocity. In general, highest velocities are obtained with highest volume. As the data is read, selecting from Nosler the powder that gives both is one of the best powders to begin with for load development.

Muzzle flash is a combination of several factors. Ultra slow motion film will show muzzle flash prior to the exit of the bullet! In those cases, it is attributed to the column of air inside the barrel being pushed and compressed ahead of the accelerating bullet and that superheated air column will ignite the oxygen in proximity to the muzzle. The flash associated with muzzle blast occurs after the bullet has left the barrel and is affected by temperature of those gases further igniting oxygen outside the barrel as well as the volatility of the gasses themselves. The type of powder and the type of deterence coatings on the powder alter this flame signature.

At least, IMO.
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:54 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

Muzzle blast is superheated carbon and ash. It is what leaves "powder burns" when a gun is used within two feet to shoot someone. None of that residue will burn - its not powder. It is the additives to the powder that are used to slow it down or smooth propagation.

For you two, Bushmaster and Vince, I will slow down the talk.
The powder that comes closest to filling the case while getting pressures closest to the maximum is the powder that is ideal for the cartridge. It is the powder that will give the highest velocity regardless of the barrel length. Changing the barrel length doesn't change the case capacity or the pressure. It only changes the length of time the pressure pushes on the bullet. The pressure curve only changes if you change the bullet, case volume or tempurature. The primer can also affect the curve but only to a certain degree and mostly that part of the curve on the way up to maximum.
It all means that you use the same powder for your load whether you have a 26 inch barrel or a 10 inch barrel. If you don't like the flash or blast and you are willing to give up velocity you can use a slightly faster burning powder. It won't make the bullet go as fast but it will give less blast and flash - when the gasses cool down there is less blast because the pressure is dropping faster and you get less flash because when the gasses cool so does the ash and carbon. Heat is what causes pressure and heat won't go down until the pressure does.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

Yep, makes sense to me now. Very Happy

Thanks Paul, writing it slower allowed it to come across slower and clearer.
Laughing Very Happy

Cheers, Vince

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

I believe this theory works for longer barrels. But try as I might I couldn't get 1100 fps from a 2 1/2" barreled .357 magnum using H110, W-296 or 2400. These fore mentioned powders filled the case. I was able to get 1100+ fps using W-231 though and it doesn't even come close to filling the case. I was using a 125 grain SJHP. PaulS...Can you explain this?

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

Bushmaster,
With a shorter barrel you lose speed no matter what. But you will never get a "faster burning" powder to give higher speeds than those slower powders that give the highest speeds with a long barrel.

No matter how long the barrel is, H110 will always give more velocity than WW231 or bullseye in the same gun with the same barrel length.

We were discussing whether a person should load a faster powder when using a shorter barrel to get better velocity out of it. The answer is no, the faster powders will not give higher velocities no matter how short the barrel is.

Is it clear as mud now? :^)

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Paul
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Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
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204Shooter
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
The powder that comes closest to filling the case while getting pressures closest to the maximum is the powder that is ideal for the cartridge.

PaulS,
Based on this input, one might think we should load powder charges based on volumetric data rather than weight (i.e. just fill the case up to a mark near the top). However, as you know we always weigh charges. I would think that if the powder manufacturers could control the weight to volume measurement precisely then the volume charge method would make sense and probably be a better way to load charges.
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:16 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

We weigh the charch to make sure we put in the right amount for the cartridge - If we select the right powder for maximum performance it will very nearly fill the case. I set my charges by weight (weigh it on the scale) to set my powder dispenser. Then I throw the charges with the dispenser - I only weigh every 20th charge - In reality I am loading by volume but I am loading a specific weight of charge by volume.
I have found that loading cartridges with double base powders, I get better results with thrown charges rather than weighing each charge on the scale.
Paul

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Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

Measured charges can give superb results. In fact many benchrest and competition shooters measure rather than weigh. This presumes a top notch powder measure and a reasonably even powder column as well as the selection of powders that meter well plus a consistent throw. Visual inspection of each cartridge is an absolute as some powders (Trail Boss or long stick stuff) can bridge in the measure and give a short charge on one case and an overcharge on the next.

I have an old Belding and Mull powder measure that does yeoman service and is amazingly consistent. The Redding Match grade measure does a great job for me as well. Even the Lee powder dippers can be effective, amazingly if the technique for their use is learned, although, they limit options somewhat.

The scale's job is to set the measure and to recheck periodically. When setting the measure, let's say for 40grains, I set the scale for 200 grains and drop five charges into the pan to see if it is, in fact, 200 grains. Once the measure is charging consistently, I can then fill the cases, being careful to keep the powder column in the measure reasonably at the same height.

Powder measures should be cleaned and maintained regularly. Cleaning the charging drum or bar and removing any accumulated coating from the powder assures a smooth motion of the charge handle. That smooth consistent motion is a key to uniform charge weight.
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longshots
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

204shooter, I had a NEF in .243 and it did well with 95gr BT's over IMR 4350. The load is in the Nosler manual and you can adjust as necessary. I got 1" groups out of it, good luck.
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