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For 45/70 Fans
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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kbis
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Location: East, Texas

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: For 45/70 Fans Reply with quote

I did find one little fault with the 45-70. I loaded a few rounds for my Ruger #1 at "Ruger loads" (which are hotter than Marlin loads and I believe hotter than 450 loads) to see what they would do. They were a little rough on the body, but will bring down just about anything on the planet :).
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d_hoffman
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: For 45/70 Fans Reply with quote

The .450, like I told you in the private message, has a heavier, belted case. You say you can load up a 45-70 to be equal to a .450. What's to stop someone from loading up a .450 so that it's still a better round which is posible because of the heavy, belted case.

I also told you that the only way I can compare the two is the leverevolution and if you read the ballistics on them, the .450 is clearly the leader.

45-70 325 gr. Evolution 82747
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
2050/3032 1729/2158 1450/1516 1225/1083

Trajectory (inches)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
-1.7 3.0 -4.1 -27.8


450 Marlin 325 gr Evolution 82750
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
2225/3572 1887/2569 1585/1813 1331/1278

Trajectory (inches)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
-1.7 3.0 -2.2 -21.3

Do I need to show you a third time?

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: For 45/70 Fans Reply with quote

Quote::
While SAAMI maximum average pressure for the .45-70 is 28,000 psi, Dave Emory at Hornady says the maximum average pressure for the .450 Marlin will be 43,500 psi.

Quote::
The latest Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, for example, lists three separate categories of load data for the old .45-70 cartridge. The first is for Trapdoor Springfield rifles, where the Hornady data does not exceed 25,000 cup. The second category is for the Marlin lever-action rifles, and pressures are held to 40,000 cup. The final category is for Ruger No. 1 rifles, and the pressures go to 50,000 cup in this category.

Quote::
The fired .45-70 case holds 83.1 grains of water; a fired .450 Marlin case holds 76.8 grains.

www.galleryofguns.com/....asp?ID=40

In a strong action like the Ruger No. 1 which can handle high pressures loading the 45-70 to 50,000cup (which is roughly the standard for other cartriges) is ok and it will outpreform the 450 Marlin because of the larger case capacity with the same powder charge will create LESS pressure then the 450 Marlin. Smile

Dimitri

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: For 45/70 Fans Reply with quote

Owing to the weaker actions chambering 45-70, pressures in factory ammo have been kept low. The 450 Marlin, chambered in stronger actions, allow higher pressures and more velocity in their lever actions. Put both in equally strong actions and, as Dimitri says, the 45-70 is the clear winner in the velocity, energy contest due to capaciity.

That said, there is some +P factory 45-70 ammo available along with the caveat that it be used only in strong actions.

At some level, however, velocity and power are academic and the 45-70 is a classic example. Even when kept to the "safe" lower pressures, the 45-70 is up to any N American hunting task. Since both cartridges can achieve this, any arguments about which is better seems moot.

Chrono results from my Ruger No1, 45-70:

350gr JHP, 2,405fps, 4,476 ft/lbs

Note: WW cases are now on their sixth reload with no pressure related problems in primer pockets or stretch. Estimated psi is 55,000.
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roklok
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: For 45/70 Fans Reply with quote

Anything the .450 marlin can do, the 45-70 can do better. Especially for the handloader, but even for someone that doesn't roll their own, excellent loads are available from companys such as Garrett and Buffalo Bore. Plus I like the history behind the 133 year old 45-70 cartridge. The only application I see the .450 having an advantage is in box magazines such as Brownings BLR where the rim of the 45-70 would be problematic. And I am sure most are aware of this but the belt on a cartridge case doesnt allow for higher pressures, it is there for headspacing requirements or in some cases, purely looks.
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1895ss
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: For 45/70 Fans Reply with quote

roklok wrote:
Anything the .450 marlin can do, the 45-70 can do better. Especially for the handloader, but even for someone that doesn't roll their own, excellent loads are available from companys such as Garrett and Buffalo Bore. Plus I like the history behind the 133 year old 45-70 cartridge. The only application I see the .450 having an advantage is in box magazines such as Brownings BLR where the rim of the 45-70 would be problematic. And I am sure most are aware of this but the belt on a cartridge case doesnt allow for higher pressures, it is there for headspacing requirements or in some cases, purely looks.

Thanks Dimitri, Handloader and roklok. The poster hoffman doesn't seem to realize that the old 45-70 can at minimum equal the 450. But it matters not to me, most of us know what the old 45-70 is capable of in modern firearms and the rest can shoot the 450 if they think it has more energy. I don't know how someone could believe that the 45-70 with a tad more case capacity and shooting the very same bullet would not be capable of the same or better velocity/energy as the 450. Plus the fact that Marlin uses the exact same receiver for the 45-70 and the 450. But some people are blinded by the belted case and what they read about factory loads.......... Neutral

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d_hoffman
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: For 45/70 Fans Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong here guys, I'm not trying to take anything away from the old 45-70. They are very close and they've been around since God was a Corporal. Not everybody reloads!!! So when you compare what's available... I'm still buying the .450. At one time I was going to get a 45-70 until my Nephew turned me onto his .450 which is a ported 1895. Here's what Marlin has to say about it;

Model 1895M in 450 Marlin
Working together, Marlin and Hornady Manufacturing have developed a potent 45 caliber belted cartridge that is an upgrade on the classic 45/70 Government. It's the most powerful cartridge ever offered in a Marlin lever action rifle. We've harnessed all this power into a compact 7 lb. package. Like the Model 1895G Guide Gun, this Marlin lever action features an 18.5" Ballard-type cut rifled barrel, a 4-shot tubular magazine, and a straight-grip American black walnut stock with ventilated recoil pad and swivel studs.

You do see where even Marlin says it's an upgrade of the classic 45-70 Government.

You have your preferrence I have mine.

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: For 45/70 Fans Reply with quote

d_hoffman: if you buy the 450M you will probably enjoy it to the max, afterall, those big heavy bullets do a wonderous job on game or just for the fun of it.

In quoting Marlin's adverts, do you see why they are trying to promote the cartridge? For someone that doesn't handload, it offers some advantages in power over the softly loaded 45-70 commercial ammo that is readily available. For the handloader, the 45-70 will offer the potential of higher velocity and power, but, no everyone handloads and I am pleased to see the new Marlin cartridge as an offering.

I can't help but wonder, however, if this cartridge will really be around in a decade or so. Perhaps, its a non issue as the world will come to a screeching burning halt on December 21, 2012, so shoot often, whatever you choose.
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shooter44
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: For 45/70 Fans Reply with quote

my 45-70 with 420 grain cast wil preform as well as any 450 Smile
pushed with 47 grain of R-7 its a 1/2 group at 100 yrds and it knocks down boar to bear , ain't one got up yet from it.

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1895ss
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: For 45/70 Fans Reply with quote

I agree shooter 44 ..... Oh and by the way, welcome to huntingnut. Smile

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vint2
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: For 45/70 Fans Reply with quote

WELCOME ABOARD 44!!! Very Happy

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