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The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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Bushmaster
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Location: Ava, Missouri

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

Gentleman (csx99, vint2, GonzoTx and Squirrelbait). Welcome to the site. We enjoy good natured, if not warm (not heated) discussions on here. We all learn from it and can make better choices when buying a new or used firearm. I have no beef with the not so new WSM's except that they just don't have the increased punch or accuracy to make them that much better then the so-called old chamberings. About the only real improvment is a shorter action. As far as the 1903 .30-06 is concerned, it was forced (?) on the soldiers during WWI and proved so good that they just plain caught on. Because of the influx of the WSM's a lot of the older cartridges are seeing a comeback. Not to mention the renewed interest in old calibres of the late 1800s and early 1900s (for example .45-70). Unless the gun manufactures come up with a real advancment in firearm technology. The WSMs just may fall to the wayside. For the manufacturers sake I hope not...

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

csx99: you correctly mention having to trying various types of 22 ammo to find the most accurate. And, it is amazing the amount of 22 ammo available! Sinclair markets a rim thickness gauge; since the 22 rimfire headspaces on the rim, any variance in thickness can have a minor effect on accuracy.

Buying some of the more expensive rimfire ammo, one notices that the variance in rim thickness is far less. OTOH, sorting basic ammo by thickness can be productive in terms of pure accuracy. All of this is unnecessary for plinking off hand, which is how the majority of 22s are used. For 2 cents a round, good clean ammo with acceptable accuracy is widely available.

You seem enthused about the 17 rimfires. What has been your field experience with them? Any varmints? What ranges?

I used a CZ HMR for prairie dogs this past summer and for the rare shot under 125 yards it was effective. I tried three types of ammo and all brands were accurate. Fouling began to show at around 50 rounds or so, but, was easily removed with a Bore Snake and good for another 50. Beyond 125 yards, the HMR became a bit "iffy" in the prevailing crosswinds. Of course, the recoil was getting to me by then (lol). In contrast to a 22 Magnum, my impression was that the 17 HMR offered no distinct advantage in the 125 yard and less range whereas the magnum can be used for larger varmints, such as fox and large rabbits out to 150 yards.
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WILDCATT
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

Bushmaster: you are aware that most soldiers of ww1 did not carry springfields,the carried 1917 enfields which I belive was a better gun.better sights and much stronger than springfield.
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

Yes I am...But we weren't discussing Enfields... Very Happy

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tikkat3
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

My 2cents worth.
We are all Human and the only thing that seperates us from the other beasties is that we can "ACCESSORISE" (ask your wifes/girlfriends).
We are all consumers and are driven by the basic need to stay fashonable
(see your wives/girlfriends decide on what to wear with what)
To get these things you need to shop (what are your wives/girlfriends doing now) and to attract you to there wares they have to have the latest and most fashonable accessories (see what I got on special today).
We all know what happens to the latest and greatest -
They go back in the cupboard until their time comes around again.
My advice is - let us learn from our partners and CONSUME.
I peronally want to suffer from buyers remorse when I find out that my 300wsm is more limited by projectile choice than a 3006 or 300Win and doesn't do anything better than them. It still puts a smile on my face when I shoot it. It looks great slung over my shoulder too.
As for the 17rimfires, the 17 Myra of the 60's is back in vogue, great.
As for people not wanting the latest, they still do and you still can throw rocks if you want.
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csx99
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

tikkat3:
I have to agree. Gentlmen thanks it's been fun. Very Happy
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

What...csx99...Going somewhere?

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

tikkat3: +1 good post
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yotebuster
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

A reliable and knowledgable source has told me that the WSM's are in trouble. Seems there was a patent infringment on an individual's idea and he took Winchester and Browning to court on it. He won big time. The manufacturers will have to be coughing up some pretty stiff royalties for them to continue producing arms and ammo with the "WSM" design. That may have even been the straw that broke the camels back with Winchester fading away. They were heavy into it.
Word is that WSM will likely diminish greatly. wtf
Time will tell.
Yotebuster

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

yotebuster: correct information, but, not necessarily the proper conclusion.

Ric Jamison, a feature writer for "Shooting Times" patented the WSSM design in advance of Winchester/Browning/FN's chamberings. Ric resigned from the magazine in face of conflict of interest, I presume, due to future advertising monies that would be spent by USRAC. That was our loss as his articles were well written and well researched.

It is suspect that the royalties due Ric were part of the decision to cease production at New Haven, at least that is one rumor. Browning/Miroku continues to chamber some WSSMs. I am not sure if the patent infringement applied to the WSMs. The 300 WSM, and to lesser degree, the 270 WSM continue to have some appeal for those wishing short action rifles.

Anyone have added or more accurate info?
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codybrown
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

Nope, that's the first time I heard anything about that.

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

I do belive Olin (who owns the Winchester name) is the one with the patents on the WSM's and WSSM's and had their money invested, USRAC who used the Winchester name was just building rifles not the ammunition. Smile

Personally I think it won't fly, Olin will have a counter suit agisnt his pattent stating something to the effect of "It was already done before him" or "His patents are all incompassing general patents and he never actually developed them into a real viable standardized product" or they can say "You can't pattent a piece of copper and some gunpowder in it because its the same thing a carterage no matter what way you make it" but that might void Olin's pattents as well. Confused

Dimitri

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Morax
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

Olin owns Winchester name? in what capasity, thier rifles powder or all encompasing i never knew this.. interesting.. I knew before it happened that winchester was no longer making thier powders, and Hod. was putting it out in thier name for them..
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

Olin bought out the rights to the Winchester name, and possibly the original firearm patents (which are probably expired by now) as well, USRAC was leasing the rights to the name and the lease was to expire when USRAC (who is owned by FN Herstal who also owns Browning) decided to close up shop, now FN Herstal (or possibly Browning) bought a new lease on the rights to the name after they closed the factory in the US. Smile

I'm willing to bet the reason they did it this way was because they wanted a quick way to drop USRAC and the employee's without having to pay out serverens packages or dealing with a possibly union if the USRAC employee's were unionized. Confused

Dimitri

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Morax
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: The Dying WSSMs and others doomed for extinction Reply with quote

ahhhh i see now... rape and pillage corperation style..
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