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"KNOCK" down POWER!!
Big Game Hunting topics that dont fit other categories
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deermanager
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:35 am    Post subject: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

As a proffesional hunter i often hear guys come up to me with some shiny new rifle chambered for the latest super magnum and remark how with its tremendous knock down power no deer sized annimal would be able to stay on its feet after being hit. When i tell them that whether the annimal stays on its feet or goes straight down is down to bullet placement to a higher degree than how many ft/llb's they are packing or what new super killing bullet they are using that promises lightning quick kills, i can see it going in one ear and out the other and can see them thinking how can he know its a new caliber or these bullets only just came out!!
When we get down to taking the shot, i always advise to go for the heart with clients. If you know you quarry's anatomy it is possible on deer to completely destroy the heart and an large portion of the lungs without ever touching the 2 shoulders. This i consider to be the perfect chest shot as it kills the annimal as cleanly as possible without turning the two shoulders into ham burger meat! With this shot however you will 99% of the time never knock the annimal down and kill it on the spot. How could you? all you have done is removed the heart and collapsed the lungs, their is still a great deal of residual oxygen and blood for that matter still in the annimal giving it life, when the annimal runs it quickly depleats this "reserve" and when due to the heart and out of action lungs the oxygen debt is not being paid for it keels over. This varys between annimals, i have seen small 6month old does hit here go 100yds flat out in a leaping run, and i have seen huge stags hit and just remain motionless for a minute or so then stagger and go down. You can never predict the annimals reaction, although you can be certain that if the annimal goes straight over you have either clipped one of or both shoulers, hit the spine, or if you really are shooting wild the neck or brain. I admit the heavier calibers will pull a deer down if one of the shoulders is clipped on some occasions, but more often the deer runs with one leg up and is essentially running on only 3 legs.
When one of these clients shoots his/her beast and it goes straight over and they turn to me and say see! with a big smile slathered accross their face i always hold my tongue as their is no point, and wait till we get back to the larder. Usually they have hit plum centre in the shoulder, or have partly listened and gone in where i said on one side but not taken into account the angle at which the annimal is standing and drilled thru the opposing shoulder! thus writing off the front half of the carcass in regards to me being able to exract any revenue from it!
I suppose its practice makes perfect, but one saying keeps ringing true as i've seen guys with little .222's fold up huge stags on the spot where guys with .375's and bigger had failed....................its all down to bullet placement!!!
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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Howdy I agree shot placement is the most important part, and as you stated heart shot deer don't always want to drop, even though there dead on the hoof, i seem to get more knock downs with a lung shot i am not sure exactly why but any how, bottom line a deer shot in the heart with a 222 will die more humanely than one shot in the butt with a 338 just my opinion. Smile

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grimel
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

One thing peopole tend to forget:

Meat damage is directly propotional to velocity and inversly proportional to bullet weight (in caliber).

30-30, 375win, 45/70, 30-06 (with 180 or 200gr standard bullets), and such allow one to eat right up to the bullet hole. Start dropping the bullet weight and jacking up the velocity in the quest for the 500 yd flat as a table trajectory and you can start throwing out meat.

I won't even start on how 99.9% of the people can shoot the old fashioned eat to the hole choices and HIT where they aim versues the same people that have a hard time hitting any part of the animal with the latest super boomer.

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deermanager
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Is there a .375winchester ? havent had a client use one with me yet, have had plenty of .375H&Hmagnums (Holland and Holland). In England we have 7 differant species of deer we may encounter when out.
The smallest being the muntjac and water deer that only weigh 30llbs -40llbs dresses out. Even with a 180gr controlled expansion bullet damage to these diminutive deer is collossal due to the small frame of the carcass, far less compared with my .243 with ballistic tips.
Beleive you me i shoot enough to know, i shoot 3-500 deer each year myself and guide clients on a good deal more and believe you me just when i think i've seen it all someone else comes along and makes me think again!
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popgun
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Yep, 375 Winchester. A lever action cartridge usually and very potent.
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grimel
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Take a 30-30 and blow the case out straight. That's a 375 Win (or 38-55 in the lowered powered older version). It will kill any deer walking the planet with minimal damage to the meat (much less than your 243 ballisit tips). In a 14" Contender it's the nearest thing to The Hammer of Thor to be found (along with the 375 JDJ, 338 JDJ#2, 35 Rem, 358JDJ, 358 Bellm, 444 Marlin, and 45/70 govt).

Have one of your clients try a 180gr Remington Corloct on those tiny deer. Less damage than your 243 BT's. We have a LOT of deer over here. A goodly portion of them field dress out at 40-70lb. Finger size hole at impact, golf ball hole at exit with minimal bloodshot meat. If you haven't noticed, I'm not much on hyper velocity and small bullets. Our 243's run 100gr Nosler Partitions. Our 7mm RemMag (it's waaaay to accurate to sell/trade) shoots 160gr Partitions. Our 30-06's shoot corelocts or partitions 180gr. None of us care about horns and we abhore wasting meat.

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with seven hundred dollars and his thirty ought six.

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

I can count the number of deer shot through the lungs with a high power rifle that didnt drop immediately on 1 hand. I've found personally, its the #1 most reliable, fastest way to kill an animal. Very very few animals ever went in a direction other than down. I believe this to be because of the state of the animal itself. A Tense animal might be more prone to run where a calm one will probably just drop... at least that follows what I've seen in the wild.

Lemme re-host the movie WY of a pronghorn my wife shot a couple years ago with her .243 ... the older members here have seen it but its still pretty spectacular to see it just drop like it was poleaxed. Most everything I've shot with a rifle remained at the spot of impact.

Now to be fair, I dont get those results with my muzzleloader kills. While they have the power to put a major hole through both sides of a critter, it doesnt have the shock facter a high power rifle has which contributes to quick on the spot kills.

-DallanC
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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Howdy I agree 100% with you Dallan that has bin my experiance as well a lung shot just sems to take them down faster with a center fire but the muzzleloader and slugs lack the shock for instant knock downs i have had it happen just not near as often.

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deermanager
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:33 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

I can honestly say that i have seen Big Red stags hit with .375H&H's - .416's etc that have stayed on their feet for up to 10minutes with what would be considered perfect shot placement, and that is using just normal soft point ammunition designed to expand. You are essentially watching a large annimal drown in its own blood! Just not enough lung dissue is destroyed compared with the higher velocity calibres that dump far more energy into the carcass
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grimel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

375H&H - 416's even with soft points aren't designed to work on most critters, they don't expand fast enough, thus when they exit the result is closer to muzzleloader/30-30 performance than 30-06 results.

In case you haven't figured it ou, I'm pretty much a standard caliber with standard weight bullets kind of guy. I'm still searching for a reason to own something other than a 30-06 for NA game other than the big bears. Add a 22lr for small eating critters and a 17Rem for varmits/fur bearers makes one pretty well armed for most everything.

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with seven hundred dollars and his thirty ought six.

Lindy Cooper Wisdom

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

grimel wrote:
I'm still searching for a reason to own something other than a 30-06 for NA game other than the big bears.

Because well.... they are just sooo boring. If there was ever a vanilla flavor for rifles, the 30-06 is certainly it Wink


-DallanC
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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

OUCH!!

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delboy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Grimel - what are you like? Hyper velocity? Small bullets? This from a man who uses a gun that fires a half pound chunk of lead at speeds approaching 1000 fpm - no, not fps, fpM!! You could throw a baseball faster than that old front stuffer of yours, the animal probably goes down suffocating from smoke inhalation! Either that or dies of old age, waiting for the 'lead brick' to arrive. Smile As for the deermanager, he has been kind enough to invite me to shoot with him as we live fairly close to each other and, providing I don't embarrass myself TOOOO much, I'll post the result of the outing (Deer 1 - Hunter 0 Any bets?) for all to laugh at!

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deermanager
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

great one dell!! lovin it!! classic!! s**t just watching the news!! weve just had london hit by a loada suicide bombers attaking busses and trains!! when will those people give up!! we should start a new topic about what caliber best stops a suicide bomber!! really stops them in their traks to stop them being able to press the buton on their last breath!

.50BMG i think would be the answer!!

Loved what saddam did to those iranian bombers he caught, strapped them up with small amounts of their own explosive, took them out into the desert and watched them atomise one by one with a cocktail in hand on a sun lounger............justice saddam style!!
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delboy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Reply with quote

Andy, don't think you can beat a nice head shot with a 450grain solid slug at around 1600fps - give me the good old shotgun for sheer stopping power any day. All those nasty pointy bullets at a million miles an hour just go right on through whereas one shotgun cartridge = a whole clip of .38 pistol - all landing at once! Messy - but efficient! Remember children - DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME! Smile

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