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reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Spacedone
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Location: missouri

PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:31 pm    Post subject: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

well i finally today ordered one of the 60s made .308 ishapore 2A enfields and now need to work up a load for it.

ill be using

165 gr gamekings hpbt
accurate 2520 powder
CCI mag rifle primers
once fired win brass


ive read online how the ishy .308 isnt designed for commercial .308 winchester ammo or reloads and after looking at several reloading books and online it appears to me that both 308 commercial and 308 nato rounds put out the same pressures and FPS {its not easy findiong load data for 7.62x51}.

but im fairly new to reloading and have never reloaded 308 so can anyone give me some suggestions on some 308 load info i can use in my ishy.

i was given 1000 empty once fired winchester pieces of brass which i really want to use.

it appears to me using accurate 2520 designed specifically for 308 nato shouldnt be a problem in a 308 nato ishy but i dont want to be wrong.

p.s. the 165 gr gamekings {which i bought new for 15 dollars a hundred lol} will be my largest bullet weight for deer hunting.

all the other grain weight bullet i would use ie 110s, 125s, 150s, 180s,and 200s are all within pressure tolerances of a ishy in good shape{under 50,000 pressure units according to my second edition lee reloading manual}
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

Spacedone,

Not much is avalible for the 7.62x51mm NATO Sad But check this out:

Quote::
While the 7.62mm NATO cartridge has a maximum chamber pressure of approximately 50,000 pounds per square inch (psi), in the SAAMI book the .308 Winchester has a MAP (maximum average product) pressure of approximately 62,000 psi* (each by conformal transducer measurements, and therefore comparable)

www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

Dimitri

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Spacedone
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

yes ive found that but my lee and my accurate book both show the accurate 2520 producing under 50,000 cup pressure so by reason they should be fine. only a few bullet weights go over the pressure {not even counting the safty tolerance built in to the reciever}.
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

Ah ok well in that case Spacedone I dont think it should be any more deficult then loading a few cases and working your way up Smile

Hope you enjoy the range time with the Ishy. Smile

Dimitri

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ddgsnipe
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

Spacedone:

Here is a very interesting article on the ishy and it even includes some reloading data.
www.surplusrifle.com/s.../index.asp

And another article on the differences between the 7.62 NATO and the 308.
www.surplusrifle.com/s.../index.asp

I found the info on military ammunition that I was trying to find yesterday when I posted in your other topic. If you look at chapter 11 you will find the actual military recipes for the various 7.62 rounds. It lists the Ball M59 cartridge as 46gr of WC846 over a 150.5gr projectile with a maximum pressure of 50,000 PSI(not CUP).
www.dodsbir.net/sitis/...sheets.pdf

There are reloading books that specifically list loads for the 7.62X51. I believe the Hornady manual is one but I do not have it. I will check the books that I do have tonight and list any info that I might have.
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Jack
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

2520 is a really good choice of powder for the 308, IME. That's all my 308 sees these days.
Were it me, I'd stay a bit below max loads, in deference to the action, but that's really another topic......
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Spacedone
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

since i found the 2520 i dont load anything else. i load for a 1917 30 06 eddystone enfield, a no 4 mkI* 303 longbranch {sport}, a 1943 no4 mki* original 303 longbranch, and a 1943 no1 mk III {factory sported}. and now ill use it in my 308 {notice a enfield fetish lol}.

it burns clean and shoots better than anyother powder ive bought.

all the 303, 308, and the 30 06 have comparable FPS and power so the 2520 works so very well. the funny part is i use a lee powder scoop for my reloading and they all basically use the same scoop {powder load} so its not only easier but safer.
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ddgsnipe
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

I checked all of my manuals and do not have anything specific for the 7.62X51. Maybe somebody else has some that they would like to share?
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

My Hornady Manual lists data for the 308 it has no loads specific to the 7.62 x 51. All my data manuals list the 308 not the NATO round.

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

I was looking on the net for information about the 7.62x51mm NATO and the 308 Win. Apparently although the pressure numbers are different they arnt messured the same way.

PSI is used on the civilan ammo while CUP is used on the Millitary Ammo.

Quote::
For example, the SAAMI maximum pressure for the 7.62 x 51 mm is given as 52000 CUP, or 62000 PSI
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...f_pressure


Quote::
While I don't like sweeping statements, in 308/7.62 I have found that although the specifications have very similar maximum acceptable pressures, the military ammo is usually "hotter".

Commercial ammo tends to run a round 55,000 psi while I have seen some lots of military running around 60,000 psi. (Same pressure gun, observed in the same pressure testing project.)

Ammo specifications can be miss-leading. Military ammo is usually quoted using the CUP system whereas commercial ammo is quoted in psi. The actual pressure maximums are about the same, but the numbers are about 5,000 units apart. This can create the illusion that the military is lower pressure.
www.smellysmleshooters...essure.htm

This says the complete opposite, one of these days I'm going to have to find a CUP pressure testing gun and test them for myself. This confusion about pressures is annoying and untill I see the readings for myself I won't belive ether story. Smile

Dimitri

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Spacedone
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

by looking at the lee reloading manual {i have the accurate one but the lee is more complete} it appears to me that only one obscure load would be unsafe ie over 62000 psi.

speaking to a old man whos had a 308 since they came out he tells me that in shooting commercial ammo in his old military 308 for like 20 years hes never ever had a problem and his gun still shoots 1 inch groups.

i think dimitri says it right the psi and cup scales are different and that difference actually makes a difference.
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

I'm starting to think people mix up CUP with PSI and just put what ever one they wish after the number. Shocked

This makes sense with the Military ammo running hotter, look at the 5.56mm which runs at 62,000PSI according to every source I've looked at. So to me anyways it makes sense that the 7.62x51mm NATO would be a hotter round because both rounds have roughtly the same specifications they need to work with in oversized, dirty chambers. Smile

Dimitri

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

The Pressures are not the only difference between the two rounds. The 308 is a shorter cartridge than the 7.62x51. There is enough difference that if you had a close to minimum chamber length in a 308 and chambered and fired a 7.62x51 you could easily have a critical and dangerous failure. The chamber in a 308 could pinch the nech of the military cartridge to the point where it would restric bullet travel and force pressures well over the 100000 PSI mark.
With commercial 308 ammo fired in the longer and larger chamber of a military firearm you are not likely to have near the pressures that the same load would produce in a tighter and shorter commercial 308 rifle. Even if the 308 commercial round generated more pressure in a test rifle it would generate less pressure in a longer, larger military chamber. There is a lot more room for the case to expand into without being enough to cause a failure of the case.
I would say that you could fire commercial ammo in the military rifle with far less catastrophic effects than you would get if you were to fire the military 7.62x51 ammo in a commecial rifle.

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Paul
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So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

Yup PaulS, That is for sure Military Type ammo in a commercial chamber is a no-no just by looking at the go/no-go/feild reject gauges, I wouldnt fire surplus in a commercial gun ever. Smile

Dimitri

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Spacedone
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: reloading for a 308 ishapore enfield? Reply with quote

i love the net. i looked it up.

While CUP and LUP numbers were intended to be comparable to the crushing power of a given pressure in psi, the numbers are not equivalent! Since a longer duration, lower pressure pulse can crush the cylinder as much as a shorter duration, higher pressure pulse, CUP and LUP pressures frequently register lower than actual peak pressures (as measured by a transducer) by up to 20%. For example, the SAAMI maximum pressure for the 7.62 x 51 mm is given as 52000 CUP, or 62000 PSI; the .45-70, on the other extreme, is listed as 28000 in both CUP and PSI. SAAMI standards for a given cartridge may be expressed in CUP units, LUP units, or in units of pressure (PSI).


heres where i think people think commercial ammo in a nato gun is dangerous. they see the 52,000 CUP pressure and think the 62000 psi commercial load is to hot when in actuality they are the same.

a little fear and misunderstanding created the MYTH commercial in nato was dangerous.
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