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Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected?
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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Crackshot
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

Each individual has his or her own idea of what an "accurate" rifle should be, this is all realy a matter of oppinion.

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

I wont mention what kind of groups I get or the range I limit myself to Very Happy

Just because I said I require 3inch groups atleast at a given range doesnt mean that range is 300 yards away Wink

Cant even see 300 yards away well enough to use iron sights. Sad

Dimitri

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Spacedone
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

hunting practice i dont even care about group size.

my practice is simple and cheap.

i use a standard paper plate as my target. i pace off 50 paces from the target and shoot 3 shots freehand aiming for the center of the plate. i then pace off 50 more paces and shoiot 3 shots again at the paper plate. i then pace off 50 more paces and shoot 3 more shots. i do this until i start missing the paper plate completely.

once i start missing the plate i am at my farthest range i can shoot at deer sized game and be assured of a one shot kill.

i pace back and forth changing my range to my target between 3 shots. i only use one plate because one i start missing im to far and anything hitting the plate is in the sweetspot {heart/lungs} area to kill a deer one shot.

it doesnt matter one bit if my groups are 1 inch apart or 6 inches apart as long as im hitting the kill zone of my target. you cant eat paper.

meat is what matters and bragging my gun will shoot 1 inch groups {which it will} doesnt put that meat on the table.

im a HUNTER not a target shooter.

p.s. just about any rifle in fair to good condition will shoot 1 inch groups using factory ammo. it doesnt matter what the gun CAN shoot it matters what I CAN hit with my heart racing and weather conditions, elevation differences and just normal hunting conditions.
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roklok
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

If I do my part my 700 .243 with sporter barrel will keep 5 shots under .75" at 100 yards. My Rem 700 35 Whelen will normally keep 3 shots under an inch,sometimes even better. My 700 mountain rifle in .270 with its really slim barrel shoots about 1.25" 3 shot groups. All are glass bedded. 243 was Cryro-accurized also. I believe I could develop a load that would get my .270 under an inch but the load I am using is very effective and I never took the time to play around with other loads.Maybe someday.
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mikekuzara
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

While I believe you have some valid points, Spacedone, I have to respectfully disagree on some others. The fact that you know the rifle you are using is capable of sub-MOA groups gives you confidence in the field.

Shooting from the bench and shooting in the field differ only in the position you are shooting from and the amount of support for you or your rifle. And sometimes the support and position are exactly the same.

The basics for making an accurate shot are the same no matter where you are. Breathing, sight picture, trigger squeeze, follow through. If you learn to do these things well from the bench, it will only improve your accuracy away from it. I perfected my shooting technique in Junior Rifle League from the time I was 10 to 18 years old. I reached the rank of Distiguished Expert with the NRA program. After tens of thousands of rounds of .22 shot through open sights at a silver dollar sized target 50 feet away from prone, sitting, kneeling, and standing positions, the basics were automatic and needed no concious effort any more.

I also found that there was no difference in shooting the .22 target rifles and a big game rifle, until after the shot.

I have made offhand shots at ranges up to 350 to 400 yards, I have made supported shots (sitting, resting on a log, etc) out to 700, with a 30-06 with a straight 6X scope. I try to avoid offhand shots if I can, but I also know the secrets of how to make an offhand shot. You will always sway a bit from side to side when you are standing, in a shallow arc with the lowest point in the center. You simply have to shoot enough that you know when to put the last 1/1000 of an ounce of pressure on the trigger to make the bullet go where you want it.

I see nothing wrong with bragging about what you can do with your rifle from a bench, some people I have seen can barely keep all of the holes on the paper even with a bench rest. My personal best is hitting a prairie dog at 450 yards offhand with my 30-06.

Since I usually go for head shots, my accuracy standards are more demanding. But then so are my hunting techniques. I don't drive deer out of cover, I either sneak up on them or wait where I think they will pass by. I have not had to take a shot longer than 125 yards for about 10 years or so. I have averaged 3 to 5 deer a season, with a few of those being offhand head shots at 30 to 70 yards. A rifle that won't shoot sub-MOA won't put food on my table either.

The bottom line is this, if you lack a little confidence in your shooting ability, having a gun that you know is a tack driver can boost your confidence. Even if you are a little off in your aim, you know your gun is going to shoot where you point it. Saying that bench shooting doen't mean anything as far as "real" shooting goes is short sighted.

I know some people who are Davey Crockett from a bech rest, but have trouble in the field. I don't know a single person who is a piss poor shot from a bench that suddenly transforms into Annie Oakley in the field.

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george20042007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

Spacedone wrote:

p.s. just about any rifle in fair to good condition will shoot 1 inch groups using factory ammo.

Can you believe this Werd I heard everything now. I'm going to give up handloading all together & start buying that cheap factory stuff. Why, I didn't know it was so good. Shocked But, I don't know which brand to buy, or in what weight for the distance & size animal Confused Read Book

So many questions Sad Is there an expert out there? Help, please...
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rrogacki
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

IMO, the grouping has more to do with the shooter and less with the gun. An expensive gun with someone who never goes to the range will perform poorly, an inexpensive gun shot frequently will group very well.

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rrogacki
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

DallanC wrote:
I would concider .25" a "holy grail" ... something you shoot for but never or rarely obtain.

I a have factory, unmodified rifle that shoots .5" with factory ammo (my WinM70 in 7STW with the crappy remington ammo LOL). Other hunting rifles I like to be in the 1 MOA range and find with minor modifications, is usually achievable.

My wifes .243 is the upper limit of accuracy that i will accept in a hunting rifle, 2.5 MOA. I will be floating that barrel in the next few months & I hope we get groups half that. Still, shes killed alot of deer and pronghorn with that gun.


-Dallanc

Dallan,

I have a Browning A-Bolt Hunter in .243 that shoots as bad as it gets. Mad If I get a 5 inch group at 100 yards I consider it to be a good day. Any advice or opinions on what is wrong with this gun, it is only two months old and I'm ready to trade it in, but I'll lose about $350 on the deal. Mad

Thanks.

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Spacedone
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:28 am    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

there are rifle standards for accuracy.

most rifles in the factory are test shot by bolting the rifle in a vice and using a mechanical trigger puller. the test is done using factory ammo.

the normal goal is for one inch groups at 100 yards. the test guns are tweeked until they shoot these 1 inch groups then all the machines are set to duplicate what the test guns shoot. during manufacture the new rifles are spot tested to make sure that the accuracy standard is maintained.

they dont just design a rifle and make it and dont test it or have a standard for how its supposed to shoot. some because of machining faults will shoot poorly but the majority will fit the standard.

ammo is the same way.

someone makes a handload that is considered safe in the majority of guns and is under max capacity for the brass {the less powder the better for the facory because of price} but a standard FPS range is maintained ie 1900 FPS.

specific handloads loaded for specific guns will improve accuracy slightly and will be slightly more consistant.

once you get your sights or scope set then until something moves them the rifle will shoot what ever group it shoots consistantly if the shooting conditions are the same.

you make a handload that shoots 1 inch groups on a 79 degree day at 30 percent humidity and it will shoot a different grouping if the temp is 45 degrees and the humidity is 80 percent. the gun is the same way. if shooting conditions change the grouping will change.

most people reload ammo not for accuracy but because its cheaper than buying factory ammo. yes every gun has a favorite load which it will shoot best and all of us who reload try to find the best loading for our guns but we can make a load that shoots alot worse in our guns than factory ammo just like we can load a load thats perfect for our guns.

i have 14 long guns

my bringback K98 made in 1916 and reworked in 1920 using factory ammo shoots 1 inch groups

my 1917 eddystone using factoy ammo shoots one inch groups.

my 4 enfields shoot one inch groups

my western field 22 shoots 1 inch groups

it costs me half to reload ammo what it costs for factory ammo. and like for the enfields ammo is getting hard to find.

for compitition target shooting sub MOA groups are not only desired but required if you want to win but for normal hunting conditions sub MOA groupings are not really needed since if your a reasonable shot then one shot will kill your game and you dont need a grouping of a half inch.

any fair to good shape gun using fair to good quality factory ammo will shoot fair to good groupings and will kill the game the bullet is designed for and the gun is enough caliber to kill reasonably.
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Crackshot
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

rrogacki..... send that Browning to me as soon as possible, I will get it shooting for you and send it back as soon as I'm done...........err maybe awhile though :):):):)

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rrogacki
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

Crackshot wrote:
rrogacki..... send that Browning to me as soon as possible, I will get it shooting for you and send it back as soon as I'm done...........err maybe awhile though :):):):)

Crackshot,
Just email me your address and it will be out in the mail tomorrow morning. Laughing Seriously though, this rifle is a nightmare. I found the bolt that locks the action to the stock was loose, so I tightened that. I checked to make sure there wasn't a high spot on the stock under the barrel. I set the trigger pull to its' minimum. I replaced the scope and I've tried factory ammo and reloads. Nothing helps and I can just imagine the phone call to Browning to tell them what a lemmon this gun is. The gun shop where I bought it has offered to check the rifle out for me. But I have very little faith that they will do anything but keep it for two weeks and then call me to say that it is just fine.

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Crackshot
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

Check the crown, check the barrel, see if its floating or not, If not float it, Have the action glass bedded. If all this fails skip the retailer, go directly to Browning, Better yet go to them first.

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Shotgun
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

The difference between sporter barrels and thick (sniper/varmint) barrels is heat dissipation. A sporter barrel of the same quality as a thick barrel should have the same accuracy on the cold bore shot. After the first shot a sporter barrel will start to open up. Then again, a sporter of high quality will be more accurate then a thick one of poor quality on the cold bore shot.

Hope that made sense.
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SwampFox
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

The truth is that the shops of today have, by and large, great equipment. They can turn out production rifles today that are better than the best production rifles of 50 years ago. Some turn out rifles as accurate or better than the best custom guns of yester year. The ammunition made by some of the makers today is excellent. Example, just last year, I saw Winchester Fail Safe (nickel brass black bullet) in 308 shoot .25 inch groups in a Weatherby Vanguard hunting gun. The WSM Winchesters are shooting excellent groups with Winchester ammo.

Now the flip side: 90% of shooters can not shoot a sub 1" group. 90% of the 10% left, can not shoot a .50 inch group and so forth. When you talk of .25 or .10 groups, you are in rare company.

A new, modern gun, off the shelf, should be capable of 1 inch groups. But it might require tweeking, like floating the barrel or glass beding, to get there.

What the shooter can do is a different matter all together. If a shooter can not hit the ground with his hat, a $10k whatsit will not make one bit of difference.
Ed

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Last edited by SwampFox on Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Crackshot
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Sporter barrels- What is reasonably expected? Reply with quote

100% of all rifles and handguns CAN shoot better than the person shooting them, that goes with out saying.
Practise, practise, practise...is the only thing that can make a good shooter better, asuming he has good equipment to begin with.

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