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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5001 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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While reading through various forums I see a trend among some folks to “hate” the .40 S&W cartridge. Personally I find that sorta confusing. I know folks tend to pick, and defend, a favorite cartridge, team, automobile, etc. but I really don’t understand the dislike for the .40 S&W. With that in mind I decided to compare the .40 with three other cartridges that usually get mentioned in the discussions; the 9 x 19mm, the 10mm Auto and the .45 Auto. I took the basic information for this comparison from the 7th Edition of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading. For each cartridge I picked an XTP bullet with approximately the same Sectional Density, 0.14. I also calculated the recoil energy for each cartridge using the same gun weight (39 ounces, as in a 1911). Note that the velocities used for the 9mm and .40 were from 4" barrels while the 10mm and .45 were from 5" barrels. Now I know that people can hunt around and find different loads that will change the results some but I just wanted a fairly simple comparison, not a doctoral dissertation.
A 9 x 19mm with a 124 grain bullet at 1150 ft/sec has 364 ftlbs of muzzle energy and 4.1 ftlbs of recoil energy.
A .40 S&W with a 155 grain bullet at 1200 ft/sec has 496 ftlbs of muzzle energy and 6.6 ftlbs of recoil energy.
A 10mm Auto with a 155 grain bullet at 1450 ft/sec has 723 ftlbs of muzzle energy and 10.4 ftlbs of recoil energy.
A .45 Auto with a 200 grain bullet at 1000 ft/sec has 444 ftlbs of muzzle energy and 7.4 ftlbs of recoil energy.
If we use the 9mm as a baseline then the .40 has 1.4 times as much energy, the 10mm has twice the energy and the .45 has 1.2 times the energy. The .40 has 1.6 times the recoil, the 10mm has 2.5 times the recoil and the .45 has 1.8 times the recoil.
Ranked by energy the .40 comes in second to the 10mm, but with only 64% of the recoil. Ranked by least recoil the .40 is second to the 9mm, but with 40% more energy. Compared to the .45 the .40 has 117% of the energy and 89% of the recoil.
Before somebody “pooh, poohs” energy remember that energy is the ability to do work. In our case that means making a hole in a three dimensional target. All else being equal, more energy means a bigger hole. Recoil numbers indicate “shootability”, the ability to place accurate and quick shots on target. That said, the .40 S&W seems to snuggle right into the same approximate notch as the vaunted .45 Auto. So why all the “hate”?
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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Grumulkin Super Member
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Posts: 365 Location: Central Ohio
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Who are the haters? I didn't know there were 40 S&W haters. It's currenty the darling of law enforcement and for good reason.
Now I did know there were 380 Auto and 9mm Parabellum haters.
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lesterg3 Super Member
Joined: Nov 30, 2008 Posts: 1328 Location: Dixie
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Great comparison PSlinger.
I like my 40 just fine.
_________________ "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. "--Thomas Jefferson
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -- Thomas Jefferson
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."--James Madison
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Vietnam War Vet 68-69 |
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11390 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Very good "dissertation" Pumpkinslinger...
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15704 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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Tremblay Super Member
Joined: Oct 08, 2007 Posts: 2645 Location: Malta, Montana
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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If you are going to shoot some thing it is all in the shot placement down to the 22...
_________________ Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark
Twain
Never argue with a stupid person ,cause they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. Mark Twwain |
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11390 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Great concept Tremblay. But if I just miss slightly atleast the .45 will do a lot more damage.
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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Tremblay Super Member
Joined: Oct 08, 2007 Posts: 2645 Location: Malta, Montana
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Bushmaster wrote: |
Great concept Tremblay. But if I just miss slightly atleast the .45 will do a lot more damage. |
That's where practice comes in.
_________________ Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark
Twain
Never argue with a stupid person ,cause they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. Mark Twwain |
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slimjim Super Member
Joined: May 16, 2009 Posts: 8314 Location: Fort Worth TX
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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I have read that because of the 40s energy advantage and smaller diameter, it goes through a car door better than a 45 does.
_________________ "To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein |
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11390 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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I practice a lot. I have my own pistol range in my back yard. But...I can still "oops" once in a while.
Not sure how many car doors I'm going to be shooting at.
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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Tremblay Super Member
Joined: Oct 08, 2007 Posts: 2645 Location: Malta, Montana
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Bushmaster wrote: |
I practice a lot. I have my own pistol range in my back yard. But...I can still "oops" once in a while.
Not sure how many car doors I'm going to be shooting at. |
Yup we all do but if it me or him I'm going to pull the trigger until it goes click, so chances are of 5 t0 14 are going to hit it mark.
_________________ Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark
Twain
Never argue with a stupid person ,cause they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. Mark Twwain |
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5001 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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I frequently see folks refering to the .40 as the "Short & Weak". I never have understood that but guess it comes from the 10mm fans.
Personally I've carried the 9mm and .40 (along with .357 Mag) and could be happy with the .45. I do lean toward the .40 due to energy and round count but I'm carrying a CZ P01 9mm most of the time these days. The 10mm, IMO, seeems more a woods/hunting round.
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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Loke Member
Joined: May 13, 2013 Posts: 207
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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The FBI has determined that an acceptable law enforcement load should penetrate somewhere between 12 and 16 inches of ballistic gelatin after penetrating various barriers. All of the ammo manufacturers are getting that from all of their defensive loads in all of the four popular defensive calibers. Those would be the 380, 9mm, 40, and 45. Since the 9mm costs up to 40% less for practice ammo than the others, it is a no-brainer why folks are choosing the 9mm over the others.
As well, the 40 S&W operates at what is considered +P pressures for the others. This contributes to higher slide velocities and more perceived recoil.
This is why there are many police agencies that are switching from the 40 to the 9mm. The 9mm is easier to shoot, and therefor easier to qualify with. Plus you get an extra round or two or three in the magazine.
This said, I own one 9mm, and two 40s.
_________________ Life is too short to carry an ugly gun. |
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11390 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Let's see. Before I left Lodi/Stockton, CA an eighty year old lady standing on her porch received 15 rounds of 9MM X 19 from a police officer who misstook her broom for a rifle. She lived. Yes I know. A lady shot her husband in the shower 6 times with a .357 magnum and he lived long enough to take the revolver from her and beat her to death with it. Then he died.
I have nothing against the .40 S&W because I don't own one. I do have two 9mm X 19s. Three .357 magnums. Three .38 Specials and two .45 ACPs. I still carry the 45 ACP more often then any of the others. I do, on ocassion, carry one of the .357 magnums (appendix). But mostly the Kimber UCC II in .45 ACP. If I was to carry my wife's .380 ACP I still would not feel underdressed.
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5001 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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I've heard the argument that the .40 operates at higher pressures but the SAAMI pressure specs for the 9x19mm and the .40 S&W are the same, 35000 psi.
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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