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Newer and Better???
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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roklok
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Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

Bushmaster,I suspected that the 300 Savage was developed from the 06 but had no proof so I didnt bring that into the discussion.If this is true it throws a whole different angle on the subject.I dont believe that its coincidence that the 30-06 and 300 Savage share basically the same head size. That brings us to another point,truly new from scratch cartridge cases are relatively rare. It is much easier to develop new chamberings from existing cases.Just look at all the belted magnums derived from the old 375 H&H case.From the short 6.5 and 350 Rem Mags to most of the Weatherbys and the 300,338 and .458 Win. Almost all of them! And no,I am not about to try making 308 brass from 30-06 that would be silly as 308s are readily available but I am sure it could be done in stages with some annealing.
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1895ss
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

Here's a copy of the Sierra Second Edition page 224 which is close to the same. If I can get it to work it will be small because of size restrictions on forum.



.308 w.jpg
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.308 w.jpg


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1895ss
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

My last post on this topic

roklok, take a close look at the cartridge dimensions .308 and 300 Savage, Dimitri posted previously. Then tell me if you think that the .308 case is not very much similar/almost perfect match to the 300 Savage. All you would have to do with the 300 Savage case is run it throught the .308 die and fireform and you would have a .308 case. Try taking a .30-06 case and cut a half inch off and running it through your .308 die and see what happens. What you will have will certainly not look like a .308 case.

The .300 Savage will fit into a .308 gun, but the .308 won't chamber in the .300 Savage. Actually the .300 Savage isn't a terrible fit in the .308. It isn't right and shouldn't be tried, but this would be one of the most benign "wrong" combinations you could have.

Read it here.... www.reloadbench.com/ganda.html

Like I said the 300 Savage is very close in specs to the .308W

For the .30-06 to be the parent cartridge, a cartridge has to be the same cartridge in all aspects except necked up or down to a different calibre as the .270, .25-06 and others. Another words, with little or no change except calibre.

By the way the 284 winchester, 8mm Mauser(8x57s)a 1888 German military round and others have the same case head and are not based on the 30-06 case. Check in your loading manual.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

I'm sorry 1895ss...I didn't mean to get roklok side tracked again...Really I didn't...

The .30-06 case dementions at the case head has been duplicated by other manufacturers from as far back as 1888. Are we saying that the 8mm Mauser is a spin off or the .30-06??? WOW!!! What a history...That means that Cain and Abel were born before Adam was created...I can live with that....

Would you (roklok) please read that page of the Sierra load manual 5th Edition that I suggested? Page 534. Seems that it's too big for me to post it here...

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roklok
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

1895,
And this is my last post on this subject.I must respectfully disagree with your "rule" that for a cartridge to be the parent cartridge it must be the same except for necking up or down.Using this criteria the 30-06 cant be the parent cartridge of the .280 Rem as the .280 case is longer than the 30-06 from the head to the shoulder(and the .270,and 25-06).Yet it is commonly accepted that the '06 is the parent case(you even listed the .280 as an '06 offspring in a previous post).Going a step further this would also mean that the 30-06 is not the parent case of the 30-06 Ackley Imp(or any other cartridge and their respective Ackley versions).There are many changes in an Ackley Imp,body taper,shoulder position,shoulder angle yet I dont see how you could argue that the 30-06 is not the parent case. And what about the .30 Gibbs? Again formed from firing 30-06 brass in a Gibbs chamber,this cartridge moves the entire shoulder forward making a longer case body.Again it seems a difficult arguement that the 30-06 is not the parent case.Yes,necking up or down is the most common form of case modification but it certainly isnt the only way.The 44 Automag cartridge case is made from cutting down 30-06 or .308 brass.It seems to me that if you cut down a 30-06 case to make a 44 Automag the 30-06 is the parent case.Hard to argue as the headstamp will say30-06.Look it up yourself: www.the-dirtiest.com/automag.htm This article also states that the 44 Automag is made from cutting down .308 OR ANY OTHER MEMBER OF THE 30-06 FAMILY. There, they also say that the .308 is a member of the 30-06 family. I rest my case and this is the last you will hear from me on this subject.
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

Oy vey...Guess what? The .45 ACP is related to the .30-06...Same shell holder....

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sniper
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Location: Utah

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

Bushmaster wrote:
...It seems that the .30-06 (the calibre that ALL .30 calibre chamberings and a few others are compared to) is very much alive and very well...Anyone else have any comments on this?

There is a statement by Jeff Cooper in the latest issue of Guns And Ammo:

"...if you can't do it with a .30-06, you probably can't do it."

The newer Whiz-Bangs are marvelous, and the rifles that they have designed for them! But the older cartridges, .30-06, 7mm Mauser, 6.5X55, .300 Savage, just seem to keep doing what they have always done, and doing it as well as many of the "new and improved" models.

What space age rifles do they put them in? Kimber, (Win. Model 70.), Howa (slightly modded Mauser), Husqvarna (Mauser again) Then there are the "old" Weatherbys...sufficient for any game on the planet, but not "new and improved!")

And the NAMES! 7.62 Warbird, .577 Tyrannosaur, .460 Capstick (I'd like to have one of those, but I'd never shoot it.) . Wow! The name should cause beasties of all sizes to lay down and die, just hearing there was one in the woods!

Pictures of wounds smoking and bubbling like geysers from a near miss! Hmmm... Maybe I do need one of them.

Bushy...as much as I hate to admit it...you are right! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Crackshot
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Joined: Oct 23, 2005
Posts: 1693
Location: Mich

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

I'm not gonna bash it at all, I have a M1 Garand, 1903A3, and a Winchester Mod70, all in the good old 30/06. Very Happy
Its a "do it all" cartridge IMO. you can find a box of 06's any place you happen to need one darn near!
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