HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: Yt_Nelson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 12383

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 231
BOT: 2
Total: 233
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Photo Albums
05: Forums
06: Forums
07: Forums
08: Forums
09: Forums
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Forums
13: Your Account
14: Forums
15: Forums
16: Forums
17: Forums
18: Forums
19: Photo Albums
20: Forums
21: Forums
22: Forums
23: Forums
24: Forums
25: Forums
26: Forums
27: Forums
28: Forums
29: Forums
30: Photo Albums
31: Photo Albums
32: Forums
33: Photo Albums
34: Forums
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Photo Albums
38: Your Account
39: Forums
40: Photo Albums
41: Photo Albums
42: Forums
43: Photo Albums
44: Forums
45: Forums
46: Photo Albums
47: Forums
48: Forums
49: Forums
50: Forums
51: Forums
52: Forums
53: Photo Albums
54: Photo Albums
55: Forums
56: Photo Albums
57: Photo Albums
58: Forums
59: Forums
60: Your Account
61: Forums
62: Forums
63: Forums
64: Photo Albums
65: Forums
66: Photo Albums
67: Forums
68: Photo Albums
69: Forums
70: Forums
71: Forums
72: Forums
73: Photo Albums
74: Forums
75: Photo Albums
76: Photo Albums
77: Forums
78: Forums
79: Forums
80: Forums
81: Photo Albums
82: Photo Albums
83: Photo Albums
84: Forums
85: Photo Albums
86: Forums
87: Forums
88: Forums
89: Forums
90: Forums
91: Forums
92: Forums
93: News
94: Forums
95: Forums
96: Forums
97: Photo Albums
98: Forums
99: Forums
100: Forums
101: Your Account
102: Forums
103: Forums
104: Forums
105: Forums
106: Photo Albums
107: Forums
108: Your Account
109: Forums
110: Forums
111: Forums
112: Forums
113: Forums
114: Forums
115: Forums
116: Forums
117: Forums
118: Forums
119: Home
120: Forums
121: Forums
122: Photo Albums
123: Forums
124: Forums
125: Home
126: Forums
127: Forums
128: Forums
129: Forums
130: Forums
131: Forums
132: Forums
133: Forums
134: Forums
135: Photo Albums
136: Forums
137: Forums
138: Forums
139: Forums
140: Forums
141: Forums
142: Forums
143: Forums
144: Forums
145: Forums
146: Forums
147: Photo Albums
148: Photo Albums
149: Forums
150: Your Account
151: Forums
152: Photo Albums
153: Photo Albums
154: Forums
155: Forums
156: Photo Albums
157: Forums
158: Forums
159: Forums
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Your Account
163: Forums
164: Forums
165: Photo Albums
166: Forums
167: Photo Albums
168: Your Account
169: Photo Albums
170: Forums
171: Photo Albums
172: Photo Albums
173: Photo Albums
174: Forums
175: Photo Albums
176: Forums
177: Your Account
178: Forums
179: Photo Albums
180: Forums
181: Forums
182: Photo Albums
183: Photo Albums
184: Forums
185: Forums
186: Your Account
187: Forums
188: Photo Albums
189: Forums
190: Forums
191: Forums
192: Photo Albums
193: Forums
194: News
195: Forums
196: Photo Albums
197: Forums
198: Forums
199: Forums
200: Forums
201: Statistics
202: Forums
203: Forums
204: Forums
205: Forums
206: Forums
207: Forums
208: Forums
209: Forums
210: Forums
211: Forums
212: Forums
213: Forums
214: Forums
215: Forums
216: Photo Albums
217: Forums
218: Forums
219: Photo Albums
220: Forums
221: Forums
222: Forums
223: Forums
224: Forums
225: Forums
226: Forums
227: Forums
228: Forums
229: Forums
230: Forums
231: Forums
  BOT:
01: Photo Albums
02: Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 312
 Pictures: 2417
  · Views: 250358
  · Votes: 1255
  · Comments: 86
 

Support our Advertisers

I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels ....
Discussions run-amok, innane banter it all goes here
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Spam-O-Rama

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5906
Location: Southern Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:05 am    Post subject: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

www.northerndtool.com/...efficiency

Just a "rant" about Ethanol fuels ...

Per litre it has 21.2 MJ of energy. Since I realize that most here are American I'll use both systems, you end up with 80.25 MJ/US Gal.

  • Gasoline with a Octane of 91? 34.8MJ/L or 131.73MJ/Gal.
  • So you end up with 90/10 (90% gasoline and 10% Ethanol) having 33.7MJ/L or 127.56MJ/Gal.
  • That newish E85 they are pushing? 25.2MJ/L or 95.39MJ/Gal.

Car engines have a maximum efficiency of 37%, cars cannot EVER pass this limit. Most new "fuel" efficient engines are only at 20%.

So on say a Harley with it's 48mi/Gal. One Gallon of Regular fuel Octane 91, and assuming a 20% efficiency, means to drive 48 miles you need 26.35MJ's of energy, this is more or less a "absolute", in that you can't suddenly make the bike use only 1MJ of energy to do the same distance, regardless of what fuel you use. Since Harley says "under ideal laboratory conditions", we all know real world fuel economy will be worse then listed, but that 26.35MJ's of energy can be considered a minimum energy we'd need to move the bike.

If you use 90/10 you'd need

131.73MJ/Gal / 127.56MJ/Gal = 1.03 Gallons of fuel.

E85?

131.73MJ/Gal / 95.39MJ/Gal = 1.38 Gallons of Fuel.

Now as for "pollution" to get us to where we are going.

When you burn Gasoline you end up with this equation:

2 C8H18 + 25 O2 → 16 CO2 + 18 H2O

Ethanol?

C2H5OH + 3 O2 → 2 CO2 + 3 H2O

The molar mass of Gasoline is ~0.75g/cm^3 (100oz/gal) while for Ethanol it is ~0.79g/cm^3 (105.4oz/gal)

So in one Gallon of Gasoline you have 2835g of gasoline.

In one Gallon of 90/10 you have 2552g of gasoline and 299g of ethanol.

In one Gallon of E85 you have up to 425g of gasoline and 2456g of ethanol.

The molar mass of gasoline is ~114g/mol, while Ethanol is ~46g/mol.

  • So in regular gasoline you have 24.9 mol of gasoline.
  • 90/10 you have 22.4 mol of gasoline and 6.5 mol of ethanol.
  • In E85 you have 3.7 mol of gasoline and 53.4 mol of ethanol.

As per the above chemical equations, you end up with eight times the CO2 in moles then you have in gasoline, and two times that of Ethanol.

  • So regular Gasoline has a easy 199.2 mol of CO2.
  • The 90/10 stuff has 192.2 mol of CO2.
  • And E85 has 136.4 mol of CO2.

So that looks like Ethanol has a "good" trade off in CO2 emissions. Which is what everyone talks about. And perhaps they are right. But remember my fuel efficiency conversions I mentioned above?

  • Regular Gasoline simply produces 199.2 mol of CO2 to get us 48mi down the road.
  • The 90/10 stuff now requires 198 mol of CO2 to get us to 48mi down the road.
  • And finally the E85 stuff now requires 188 mol of CO2 to get us the same 48mi down the road as the other two.

So while Ethanol costs us more at the pump then crude based gasoline, even with the lower production of CO2, we still end up within 6% of the same amount of CO2 being released in the air. Which is more then eaten up due to efficiency losses caused by dirty air filters, oil changes, tune ups etc.

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Aloysius
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 03, 2009
Posts: 1991
Location: B., Belgium

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

Dimitri, why bother about CO²? I've been told by a bio-engineer that CO² is a first-order reaction. When the amount CO² increases in the air, this is fertilizer for all the green stuff on earth which immediatly increases exponential it's capability to consume this CO².
Think about all these fires during the many thousands of years the earth already exists and when there is 1 thing kept realy stable over all these years, then this sure will be the % CO² in the air.

So IMHO all these words about CO² are only meant to test the feelings of the common people about a new tax they want to introduce...
Back to top
View user's profile
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5906
Location: Southern Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

Aloysius,

People in General are stupid and believe that CO2 is a evil Greenhouse gas that must be stopped, and they feel good driving around fuelling up on Ethanol for that exact reason. But the difference in CO2 emissions isn't much once you factor in the difference in energy of the fuel.

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 6745
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

oh oh... the green house gas debate?????
very interesting D thankyou for sharing that as its something I hadnt heard about before.

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
Ominivision1
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 2985
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

Don't get me started on the stupid politics involving ethanol & bio-diesel fuel Mad . Depending on who you ask, Dept of Energy says 40% loss on fuel mpg verses regular gasoline or EPA which says 30% loss on mpg verses regular gas, Bio-Diesel fuel lacks lubricants for Diesels when bought from the local pump. Our company has 32 OTR & 14 30' straight bed trucks all diesel and every single truck has had the fuel pump, injector pump, transfer pump replaced at least once already.

On the heavy duty Detroit Diesels, Cummins, Cat , Navistar, engines, on 25 trucks injector pumps were replaced before 70,000 miles.......On a Diesel!!! Mad

When opening up the pumps, it was nothing but scored lines on the aluminum housing and 8 of them were so bad (egg shaped) we had to buy a new or rebuilt pump which I tore apart and put steel sleeves in before the truck went into service.

Now we have made Bio-Diesel fuel ourselves and yes you have to apply for it by paying state and federal taxes on the amount you can make per year. We made 2000 gallons last year of homemade Bio-Diesel, Bio-Fuel for one straight bed 30' truck with an International engine in it and the engine never once had any fuel pump failures or for that matter any failure with the engine.

I'll get off my rant stool now. Read this www.businessweek.com/l...058678.htm

_________________
Regards

Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
gelandangan
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 5648
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

While I agree with Dimitri's deduction, I think CO2 is the least of the worry in using ethanol.

IMHO, renewable fuel source is higher in the list.. Much higher!

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

Do - Not try!


gelandangan.weebly.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5906
Location: Southern Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

Geland,

Even if the American's converted every acre of land that can be possibly used to farm corn, instead of all other food stuffs, they still could not meet their fuel requirements.

Similar in most of the world really. It is just not practical to go for biofuel.

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 6745
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

Omnivision my work place has bought new DAF trucks and they have diesel and aquablue which is added to the fuel. I believe it is a urea product!!!!

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5906
Location: Southern Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...aust_fluid

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 6745
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

yip that explains it thankyou.

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 3334
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

I look at it this way Dimitri:
take the compression from 9:1 for a gasoline engine to 14 - 15:1 for ethanol and you get the same mileage from alcohol as you were getting from the gasoline at 9:1 BUT you get nearly 30% more power because the alcohol burns slower, is more volume in liquid form, expanding more as it evaporates and burns and the water that is in it is super heated into steam which provides more push on the piston through more of the crank rotation.
While I agree that corn alcohol is not the answer I do know that with 5 acres of land filled with juruselam artichokes you can make over 10000 gallons of alcohol a year. Mix that with 20% water and you have enough fuel for two to three cars for the year.
This is in engines built to take advantage of the anti-knock characteristics of ethanol and tuned to make mileage and power.

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5906
Location: Southern Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

Paul,

You cannot get the same mileage out of Ethanol fuel that you can out of gasoline, its a simple issue of engine efficiency (which is fixed for internal combustion engines regardless of the fuel source), and the energy required to move the car.

You need to burn more ethanol by volume to travel the same distance as you would Gasoline.

The United States has a total of just under 2.3 billion acres of farm land. Your claiming 2000 gallons per acre, that is 4.6 trillion gallons of ethanol.

ucce.ucdavis.edu/files...-61784.pdf

According to this the yield is much less. A mere 441 gallons per acre.

In 2011 the United States consumed 134 billion gallons of gasoline, which would take 1.64 times the volume to produce the same amount of energy. Which would mean 220 billion gallons of gasoline would be needed.

Production according to that report would peak at 1014 billion gallons. And that is even assuming that farm land that can barely support such things as cattle grazing and wheat production which is no good for anything else could be used. That is a big if.

And this is not including diesel (60 billion gallons a year), jet fuel (20 billion gallons a year), and other uses that add up quite a bit for crude.

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
MacD
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Apr 08, 2011
Posts: 1052
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

So what is your take on biodiesel in turbo-charged engines?

_________________
La a'Blair s'math n Cairdean
(Friends are good on the day of battle)
Back to top
View user's profile
Ominivision1
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 2985
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

We use additives made by Power Service and have not had any major problems as all our trucks are equipped with turbos. It was when bio-diesel first came out in our area commercially there was no additives here at that time.

_________________
Regards

Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
radar
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Oct 01, 2008
Posts: 1079
Location: North Island New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: I wrote a rant on Ethanol fuels .... Reply with quote

Theres an old urban legend (conspiracy theory) out there that some one actually a good many someones have invented fusion? engines that run on water ie the molecular structure of H2O is broken and the energy released is where the power comes from. The fuel is easily sourced but here's the ringer - when patents are applied for the Fossil Fuel Nations buy the whole thing lock stock and barrel and mothball it because it would decimate their economy.
Anyone else heard about this?

_________________
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Spam-O-Rama
Page 1 of 3
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


Advertisements
 


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by Dizfunkshunal :.