Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot"

slimjim

Finally took the plung and got a RCBS Rock Chucker and some Redding .270 Win and .223 dies. I was expecting to see equal or better performance with my loads - NOT! My little Lee Handloader reloads have better accuracyc. I'm getting 5" groups at 250 yards instead of 1.5". Velocities are all over the chrony. I still had a few "old" rounds left so fired them - back to 1.5" groups. The Redding Dies I have for the .270 are Full-Length and Neck-only (Lee Classic is neck only). I've used the Lee Classic for 3 years and the only time a round was hard to chamber was the case had gotten to long (15 to 20 reloads). I had 4 our of 20 round that were neck-sized only with the Redding die that wouldn't chamber without a lot of force and every cartridge was less than spec case length. Think I'm going to have to go back to square one again.

dhc4ever

Interesting from this POV, frustrating from yours.
Does this problem occur on both calibres or just the one?
What sort of accuracy are you getting from unfired brass or factory rounds?
I'd resize a fired round with the full length die and measure it against a Lee resized round, a neck sized only round, and a new unfired round , a fired round and see where the differences are.
Now with a FL resized round you will have more clearance between the chamber and round than the lee or the NS only sized rounds, this may be the issue.
Try backing the FL die off slightly and try again and see if there is any improvement.
Another thing to test is the projectile seats concentricly ie minimal run out with the different dies.
It may be a manufacturing problem with the dies, but I doubt it, try different setups and see if you can get an improvement.
What are you using as a neck lube on the cases?

slimjim

dhc4ever wrote:

Another thing to test is the projectile seats concentricly ie minimal run out with the different dies.

I called a hunting buddy and he asked me over to his man-cave (a caboose he bought and put in his backyard back when the railroads decommisioned them). Most of his reloading equipment was of similar vintage and of high quality. He said let's check concentricity first. Some rounds had 0.015 of runout. Now I have to find out why.

The Lee die neck sizes down to 0.300 outside neck diameter. The Redding with button does 0.302. The Redding without button does 0.300 also. I may try few cases run through the Redding die without the button.

fnuser

slimjim wrote:

I'm getting 5" groups at 250 yards instead of 1.5". Think I'm going to have to go back to square one again.

I know what I would do. It probably feels like home. "Square 1" I mean.

Elvis

ok have you changed anything other than the dies???
powder measuring still done the same way???
same primers? seating them the same way???
bullet seating depth???

gelandangan

slimjim wrote:

I'm getting 5" groups at 250 yards instead of 1.5". Velocities are all over the chrony. I still had a few "old" rounds left so fired them - back to 1.5" groups. .

You may want to take a breather and shoot again in a week time.
Yup, it may be the load, but usually at 250 yards, human factor counts too.

slimjim

Elvis wrote:

ok have you changed anything other than the dies???
powder measuring still done the same way???
same primers? seating them the same way???
bullet seating depth???

powder measure is the same. Seating depth is the same. Sizing die and seating die are different.

Going into this, I thought it would be a neck tension issue. Neck tension still may be a contributor to the problem but bullet run-out could definitely be a contributor also.

Here is what I'm learning. Some brass comes out of the die with noticeable run-out, > 0.005. Some are fine. When the bullet gets inserted, the run-out increases.

How much run-out should I be looking for on a case neck before I insert the bullet?

Is 0.002 of run-out on the bullet ok?

slimjim

gelandangan wrote:

You may want to take a breather and shoot again in a week time. Yup, it may be the load, but usually at 250 yards, human factor counts too.

This has been over 2 range periods. Both times, when I went back to firing rounds loaded with my Lee Classic hand dies, the groups shrank back to normal. I could go back to using the Lee but that isn't my objective. (I may have to because my elk hunting trip is coming up in 90 days and I don't want to be messing around with my loads. I need total confidence.)

Donut Slayer

"Here is what I'm learning. Some brass comes out of the die with noticeable run-out, > 0.005. Some are fine. When the bullet gets inserted, the run-out increases."
I'll just about bet a weeks check that you have an issue with the shell holder and die line-up. The case is off center just a hair and is sized off-set the same amount. I ran into that problem years ago with hornady dies. Changed shellholder to another brand and the problem went away.

Ominivision1

In my experience with these dies I use the standard expander ball with new, unfired brass on the initial re-size. I will then use the undersized retainer in place of the expander ball with brass that has been fired. I have found this step crucial in my reloading regiment to minimize bullet run out.

The use of the expander ball can cause a few thousandths of run-out when the case is being pulled back out of the sizing die. With the undersized retainer in place the only thing that touches the neck of the case in sizing is the bushing. If you prefer to use an expander ball, Redding offers caliber specific carbide floating expander balls that fit on the de-capping rod. This free floating expander ball will self center on the case neck, and reduce the amount of run-out that can be caused by a standard expander ball.

When setting up a Type-S sizing die, set the neck bushing into the die with the numbers facing down toward the body of the die. Tighten the de-capping assembly until it contacts the bushing and then back it off ¼ of a turn. This allows the bushing to free float in the die. You should be able to hear the bushing rattle if you shake the die. Having the bushing free floating self centers the neck, and again minimizes any run-out that can occur.

The above should take care of your run-out problems, also Hornady makes a tool if you want to get run-out down to zero than look at this. ----> www.hornady.com/store/...city-Tool/

slimjim

I think I'm learning. I measured a bunch of case necks for thickness and only kept the ones that had a variation of 0.0015 or less. Then I checked for run-out. Most necks that had more than 0.002 run-out could be straighten up/made concentric again by running them through the FL die. The out of round issue appears to be coming when the bullet is being seated into the case. My GMX bullets seem to go out of round more than the Berger VLD and Barnes TSX (maybe its how the bullet seater interfaces with the bullet tip). The Redding bullet seater doesn't support the case and case neck fully when the bullet is initially driven into the case neck. This may be the route cause of my issue. I really don't have the time to deal with all this with my travel so I'm going to use the Redding Die to size the case and then the Lee Classic hand loader for bullet insertion. The Lee fully supports the case before the bullet begins to interface with the brass. Anyway, if loading the bullet with my Lee returns me to tight groups, I'm going back to the part of the process and I'll sort there rest out after hunting season.

Elvis

I was taught to start the projectile in the case then turn the case and finish seating it??? dont know if it will help but it just might!!

slimjim

Interesting, Elvis. So much more to learn. I sorted loaded rounds by run-out and will test fire some for accuracy (hopefully this weekend).

It was interesting to pulling bullets. Extracting a bullet from a new case was easy regardless if crimped or not. Extracting a bullet from a reloaded case was a forceful event. Its like the residue inside the neck or the change in internal surface friction from firing grabs onto that bullet and doesn't want to let go.

stovepipe

Lil trick I read from LEE when neck sizing is to do it once then turn the case 180 and do it again. Not sure if that helps but...

A neck ID can be "x" size and on the outer limit and offer little pull. If sized propperly it'll be a very slight interfearance fit. If neck ID is too small the bullet will simply size the neck back out, or wad the case, shave the pill etc. There's a point of diminshing returns on neck tension, can only be so much before someting has to give.

slimjim

stovepipe wrote:

Lil trick I read from LEE when neck sizing is to do it once then turn the case 180 and do it again.

stovey, I like that trick and will try it on cases that don't quite come out straight the first time.