HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: DrDave
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 1
Overall: 12384

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 197
BOT: 4
Total: 201
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Albums
02: Your Account
03: Forums
04: Photo Albums
05: Photo Albums
06: Forums
07: Forums
08: Forums
09: Forums
10: Forums
11: Photo Albums
12: Your Account
13: Photo Albums
14: Photo Albums
15: Forums
16: Forums
17: Forums
18: Photo Albums
19: Forums
20: Forums
21: Forums
22: Forums
23: Forums
24: Forums
25: Photo Albums
26: Forums
27: Forums
28: Your Account
29: Forums
30: Forums
31: Forums
32: Forums
33: Forums
34: Your Account
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Forums
38: Your Account
39: Forums
40: Forums
41: Forums
42: News
43: Home
44: Forums
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Forums
48: Forums
49: Forums
50: Forums
51: Forums
52: Photo Albums
53: Photo Albums
54: Photo Albums
55: Forums
56: Forums
57: Forums
58: Forums
59: Forums
60: Forums
61: Forums
62: Forums
63: Forums
64: Forums
65: Forums
66: Forums
67: Forums
68: Forums
69: Forums
70: Forums
71: Forums
72: Forums
73: Your Account
74: Forums
75: Forums
76: Photo Albums
77: Forums
78: Forums
79: Photo Albums
80: Forums
81: Forums
82: Forums
83: Forums
84: Forums
85: Forums
86: Forums
87: Home
88: Your Account
89: Forums
90: Your Account
91: Forums
92: Photo Albums
93: Forums
94: Photo Albums
95: Forums
96: Forums
97: Forums
98: Forums
99: Forums
100: Your Account
101: Forums
102: Forums
103: Forums
104: Forums
105: Forums
106: Forums
107: Forums
108: Forums
109: Photo Albums
110: Photo Albums
111: Forums
112: Forums
113: Forums
114: Your Account
115: Forums
116: Photo Albums
117: Photo Albums
118: Forums
119: Forums
120: Forums
121: Photo Albums
122: Forums
123: Forums
124: Forums
125: Forums
126: Forums
127: Forums
128: Forums
129: Forums
130: Forums
131: Photo Albums
132: Photo Albums
133: Your Account
134: Photo Albums
135: Forums
136: Forums
137: Forums
138: Forums
139: Forums
140: Forums
141: Forums
142: Forums
143: Forums
144: Forums
145: Forums
146: Forums
147: Photo Albums
148: Forums
149: Forums
150: News
151: Forums
152: Forums
153: Forums
154: Forums
155: Photo Albums
156: Forums
157: Forums
158: Photo Albums
159: Photo Albums
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Forums
163: Forums
164: Forums
165: Photo Albums
166: Forums
167: Forums
168: Forums
169: Forums
170: Your Account
171: Photo Albums
172: Forums
173: Photo Albums
174: Forums
175: Forums
176: Forums
177: Photo Albums
178: Home
179: Forums
180: Forums
181: Forums
182: Forums
183: Forums
184: Forums
185: Forums
186: Forums
187: Forums
188: Forums
189: Forums
190: Forums
191: Photo Albums
192: Photo Albums
193: Forums
194: Forums
195: Forums
196: Forums
197: Forums
  BOT:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 312
 Pictures: 2417
  · Views: 251487
  · Votes: 1255
  · Comments: 86
 

Support our Advertisers

Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot"
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 6849
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

Finally took the plung and got a RCBS Rock Chucker and some Redding .270 Win and .223 dies. I was expecting to see equal or better performance with my loads - NOT! My little Lee Handloader reloads have better accuracyc. I'm getting 5" groups at 250 yards instead of 1.5". Velocities are all over the chrony. I still had a few "old" rounds left so fired them - back to 1.5" groups. The Redding Dies I have for the .270 are Full-Length and Neck-only (Lee Classic is neck only). I've used the Lee Classic for 3 years and the only time a round was hard to chamber was the case had gotten to long (15 to 20 reloads). I had 4 our of 20 round that were neck-sized only with the Redding die that wouldn't chamber without a lot of force and every cartridge was less than spec case length. Think I'm going to have to go back to square one again.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
dhc4ever
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 26, 2011
Posts: 2202
Location: Ipswich, Queensland Australia

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

Interesting from this POV, frustrating from yours.
Does this problem occur on both calibres or just the one?
What sort of accuracy are you getting from unfired brass or factory rounds?
I'd resize a fired round with the full length die and measure it against a Lee resized round, a neck sized only round, and a new unfired round , a fired round and see where the differences are.
Now with a FL resized round you will have more clearance between the chamber and round than the lee or the NS only sized rounds, this may be the issue.
Try backing the FL die off slightly and try again and see if there is any improvement.
Another thing to test is the projectile seats concentricly ie minimal run out with the different dies.
It may be a manufacturing problem with the dies, but I doubt it, try different setups and see if you can get an improvement.
What are you using as a neck lube on the cases?

_________________
Pete

Dont do anything you wont like explaining to the paramedics..............
Back to top
View user's profile
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 6849
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

dhc4ever wrote:
Another thing to test is the projectile seats concentricly ie minimal run out with the different dies.

I called a hunting buddy and he asked me over to his man-cave (a caboose he bought and put in his backyard back when the railroads decommisioned them). Most of his reloading equipment was of similar vintage and of high quality. He said let's check concentricity first. Some rounds had 0.015 of runout. Now I have to find out why.

The Lee die neck sizes down to 0.300 outside neck diameter. The Redding with button does 0.302. The Redding without button does 0.300 also. I may try few cases run through the Redding die without the button.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
fnuser
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 911
Location: S.W. Missouri, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
I'm getting 5" groups at 250 yards instead of 1.5". Think I'm going to have to go back to square one again.
I know what I would do. It probably feels like home. "Square 1" I mean.

_________________
N.R.A. Endowment Member
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 6745
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

ok have you changed anything other than the dies???
powder measuring still done the same way???
same primers? seating them the same way???
bullet seating depth???

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
gelandangan
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 5648
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:30 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
I'm getting 5" groups at 250 yards instead of 1.5". Velocities are all over the chrony. I still had a few "old" rounds left so fired them - back to 1.5" groups. .

You may want to take a breather and shoot again in a week time.
Yup, it may be the load, but usually at 250 yards, human factor counts too.

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

Do - Not try!


gelandangan.weebly.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 6849
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
ok have you changed anything other than the dies???
powder measuring still done the same way???
same primers? seating them the same way???
bullet seating depth???

powder measure is the same. Seating depth is the same. Sizing die and seating die are different.

Going into this, I thought it would be a neck tension issue. Neck tension still may be a contributor to the problem but bullet run-out could definitely be a contributor also.

Here is what I'm learning. Some brass comes out of the die with noticeable run-out, > 0.005. Some are fine. When the bullet gets inserted, the run-out increases.

How much run-out should I be looking for on a case neck before I insert the bullet?

Is 0.002 of run-out on the bullet ok?

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 6849
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:52 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

gelandangan wrote:
You may want to take a breather and shoot again in a week time. Yup, it may be the load, but usually at 250 yards, human factor counts too.

This has been over 2 range periods. Both times, when I went back to firing rounds loaded with my Lee Classic hand dies, the groups shrank back to normal. I could go back to using the Lee but that isn't my objective. (I may have to because my elk hunting trip is coming up in 90 days and I don't want to be messing around with my loads. I need total confidence.)

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
Donut Slayer
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jun 27, 2007
Posts: 591
Location: Pensacola, Florida

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:13 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

"Here is what I'm learning. Some brass comes out of the die with noticeable run-out, > 0.005. Some are fine. When the bullet gets inserted, the run-out increases."
I'll just about bet a weeks check that you have an issue with the shell holder and die line-up. The case is off center just a hair and is sized off-set the same amount. I ran into that problem years ago with hornady dies. Changed shellholder to another brand and the problem went away.

_________________
Browning X-Bolt in 30'06. The work for a pet load starts again. Wink The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Ominivision1
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 2985
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

In my experience with these dies I use the standard expander ball with new, unfired brass on the initial re-size. I will then use the undersized retainer in place of the expander ball with brass that has been fired. I have found this step crucial in my reloading regiment to minimize bullet run out.

The use of the expander ball can cause a few thousandths of run-out when the case is being pulled back out of the sizing die. With the undersized retainer in place the only thing that touches the neck of the case in sizing is the bushing. If you prefer to use an expander ball, Redding offers caliber specific carbide floating expander balls that fit on the de-capping rod. This free floating expander ball will self center on the case neck, and reduce the amount of run-out that can be caused by a standard expander ball.

When setting up a Type-S sizing die, set the neck bushing into the die with the numbers facing down toward the body of the die. Tighten the de-capping assembly until it contacts the bushing and then back it off ¼ of a turn. This allows the bushing to free float in the die. You should be able to hear the bushing rattle if you shake the die. Having the bushing free floating self centers the neck, and again minimizes any run-out that can occur.

The above should take care of your run-out problems, also Hornady makes a tool if you want to get run-out down to zero than look at this. ----> www.hornady.com/store/...city-Tool/

_________________
Regards

Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 6849
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

I think I'm learning. I measured a bunch of case necks for thickness and only kept the ones that had a variation of 0.0015 or less. Then I checked for run-out. Most necks that had more than 0.002 run-out could be straighten up/made concentric again by running them through the FL die. The out of round issue appears to be coming when the bullet is being seated into the case. My GMX bullets seem to go out of round more than the Berger VLD and Barnes TSX (maybe its how the bullet seater interfaces with the bullet tip). The Redding bullet seater doesn't support the case and case neck fully when the bullet is initially driven into the case neck. This may be the route cause of my issue. I really don't have the time to deal with all this with my travel so I'm going to use the Redding Die to size the case and then the Lee Classic hand loader for bullet insertion. The Lee fully supports the case before the bullet begins to interface with the brass. Anyway, if loading the bullet with my Lee returns me to tight groups, I'm going back to the part of the process and I'll sort there rest out after hunting season.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 6745
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

I was taught to start the projectile in the case then turn the case and finish seating it??? dont know if it will help but it just might!!

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 6849
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

Interesting, Elvis. So much more to learn. I sorted loaded rounds by run-out and will test fire some for accuracy (hopefully this weekend).

It was interesting to pulling bullets. Extracting a bullet from a new case was easy regardless if crimped or not. Extracting a bullet from a reloaded case was a forceful event. Its like the residue inside the neck or the change in internal surface friction from firing grabs onto that bullet and doesn't want to let go.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
stovepipe
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 25, 2008
Posts: 4678
Location: Pine, Az.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

Lil trick I read from LEE when neck sizing is to do it once then turn the case 180 and do it again. Not sure if that helps but...

A neck ID can be "x" size and on the outer limit and offer little pull. If sized propperly it'll be a very slight interfearance fit. If neck ID is too small the bullet will simply size the neck back out, or wad the case, shave the pill etc. There's a point of diminshing returns on neck tension, can only be so much before someting has to give.
Back to top
View user's profile
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 6849
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Changed dies, now my loads won't "shoot" Reply with quote

stovepipe wrote:
Lil trick I read from LEE when neck sizing is to do it once then turn the case 180 and do it again.

stovey, I like that trick and will try it on cases that don't quite come out straight the first time.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition
Page 1 of 3
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Advertisements
 


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by Dizfunkshunal :.