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12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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hubel585
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Joined: Nov 27, 2011
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:28 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

It's too rich for me, probably cost more than my home.

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.





Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.



In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..



Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed
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hubel585
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Posts: 137

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.




Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.




Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.




On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

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hubel585
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Joined: Nov 27, 2011
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
allow it to tip or go off center.



Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.



Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

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Vince
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Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 12855
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Nice Ed...I'm looking forward to seeing the end result of the Greener Martini gun.

When you say your slugs are fairly accurate at 50 yds from a smoothbore, what sort of accuracy do you mean? I manage 4" - 6" three shot groups at 50 metres from my smoothbore O/U using the LEE 1oz Keyway Slug. More than accurate enough for "close in" pigs. Haven't bothered testing them beyond that range though as I feel that it is "straining the friendship". Very Happy Laughing

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)

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hubel585
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Posts: 137

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

About 4-6 inches. From smoothbore heavy barrel.

With other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
done later this month and will be doing cases then.
Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.
I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,
to fill orders, and collectors. Get 50 for 150 bucks,get
100 for 300 bucks, 167 cases for 500 bucks.
I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
and get it to me and I send them on to him.
I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
money ready to go for over 700.
Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed
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hubel585
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Posts: 137

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
balls 285gr each, going about 1900 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.
Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,
muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did a little longer port and
added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed





PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain
compared to other big bore cases. For if you buy 150 or so you've saved
enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
My contact--- gunowner at journey.com

For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countres
make arraingements with Bertram to send cases directly to you.
We can't afford export costs to send cases back out of the US
due to costly permits.and goofy gun laws.............


.
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Elvis
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Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 6781
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

3 barrels aye??? man that is pruuuty I want one please Mr Santa Clause.

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Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
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Vince
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Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 12855
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:57 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

It is definitely a sweet looking gun Elvis...but we'll have to share it mate because they made only one...and that was for an Australian Politician back in the late 1800s.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)

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Elvis
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Posts: 6781
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:04 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

ok fair enough mate. you get first shot this time around and my turn next time? sound ok to you??

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Vince
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Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Sounds good to me mate...perfect. Very Happy

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)

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stovepipe
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Posts: 4678
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Sudscribed to thread!!! Nice!
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hubel585
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Posts: 137

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:07 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.



Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.



Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.





And an ultimate big bore from history.ED

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.



Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.



I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed


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Vince
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

Damn, I love looking at your guns mate...not always the flashest or beauty pageant winners, just all functionality.

The R&D work you guys are doing will no doubt lead to the development of some very interesting, possibly factory, loadings.

Cheers, Vince

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Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)

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hubel585
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:45 am    Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores-- Reply with quote

I found pictures of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with screw
in chokes. Will have pics few days. Don't know
how heavy barrel is yet.

Also will have pictures and test of brass 585HE sent
here. They are 585HE case samples from the first big
run of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.Ed
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